What motivates you to serve the Lord?

[LeBuick]

While Jim and Le Buick contemplate their responses, let me ask the rest of the posters the same basic question.

The proof as to the effectiveness of any motivation is how it is working or has worked in ones life. Several have mentioned differing motivations to serve the Lord. My question is, what ever you feel your motivation(s) is (are) to serve the Lord, has it (have they) freed you at any time in your relationship with the Lord from ‘all sin’ or does it work only on a specific list of sins you have made up for yourselves?

Actually, I apologized but I missed your question. Excuse the length of this post.

Why do you feel one needs to be "motivated" to serve the Lord or "motovated" to remain saved? You implying God has a scare tactic to keep you on the strait and narrow? I was adopted (Rom 8:15) into the family and the Father has received me as his child. This is why I boastfully call him My Father.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Even if I were to stray to a far away country (which I have no current plans of doing), I am still his child. Not only will the Father be watching and waiting for my return, the Good Shepehrd promised He will leave the rest of the sheep and come looking until He finds me. When he finds me, and he will find me, he will ride me on his shoulder back to the fold. Maybe someone you know who has strayed is waiting for a ride on your shoulder?

This is not a free license to Sin. One because I no longer live after the flesh so no longer desire the things of the flesh;

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

But I likewise don't live in the bondge of fear regarding if I break a law or slip of the strait and narrow;

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Secondly, because I now have a new perspective of life which was caused by my new birth.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

My life is no longer in my hands or subject to my actions, it is in the Lords hands which are far more capable hands. Look at what the Lord said in his prayer;

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

None in his hands were lost except the Son of perdition. I don't believe I am he...

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

The gift I was given was eternal life. It was not limited eternal life or conditional eternal life, it was eternal with no strings attached. Who so ever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. This is the passion that makes me serve the Lord, I don't serve Him to be saved, I serve Him because I am saved.

 

[BobRyan]

While Jim and Le Buick contemplate their responses, let me ask the rest of the posters the same basic question.

The proof as to the effectiveness of any motivation is how it is working or has worked in ones life. Several have mentioned differing motivations to serve the Lord. My question is, what ever you feel your motivation(s) is (are) to serve the Lord, has it (have they) freed you at any time in your relationship with the Lord from ‘all sin’ or does it work only on a specific list of sins you have made up for yourselves?

The question of motivation is a good one. Let's ask oursleves - "What motive" is Christ appealing to in the following texts?

Gal 5 "You have been SEVERED from Christ" -- "FALLEN from Grace"?

John 15:1-6 regarding those TAKEN OUT of Christ and tossed into the fire as their final end.

Rom 11 regarding those removed from the body of Christ -- CAST out as were the unbelieving Jews.

Matt 18 FORGIVENESS revoked -

Hint: What "motive" does God SAY He is appealing to in Romans 11?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LeBuick]

The question of motivation is a good one. Let's ask oursleves - "What motive" is Christ appealing to in the following texts?

Gal 5 "You have been SEVERED from Christ" -- "FALLEN from Grace"?

John 15:1-6 regarding those TAKEN OUT of Christ and tossed into the fire as their final end.

Rom 11 regarding those removed from the body of Christ -- CAST out as were the unbelieving Jews.

Matt 18 FORGIVENESS revoked -

Hint: What "motive" does God SAY He is appealing to in Romans 11?

in Christ,

Bob

What specific verse in Romans 11 are you referring to? The beginning of the chapter tells you who he is writing to.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

and forgiveness revoked, show me that also???

 

[Jim1999]

First off, that "one drop of blood" was enough to instill a certain passion to serve the One who was willing to die for me. That passion led me into the service, and that passion keeps me in His service, wherever that may lead.

Ceasing from sin, and sinless perfection are two different things. Ceasing from sin is a self-determination to not willingly sin. For example, the scripture says, "Be angry and sin not, but let not the sun come down on your wrath." The sin is not in the anger. The sin is in allowing the anger to continue. In essence the subject had ceased from sin, but had not achieved sinless perfection. The latter will come as we assume the heavenly body, and we become perfect in Him.

Peter certainly lived for the Lord. This didn't prevent him from entering into dispute with Paul and separating from his fellowship. Still, Peter had ceased from sin, but he honestly disagreed with Paul and went off in a different direction.

I may very well disagree, and strongly so, with some groups of people. This is not willfully sinning. The wilful sin is when I deny those folks fellowship in our common Lord.

An example of this I shall take from my life. Early on my fellowship was with a dispensational group. I disagree most strongly with that teaching. The sin would not be the disagreement on that particular doctrinal difference. The sin would be if I severed a personal relationship, that exists in the Christ, with those people. The truth is I have always maintained the kindest of relationships and thoughts for my colleagues, even though we followed different doctrinal paths.

In my opinion, if one does not have that "garden" passion, one should not entertain ministry. If one can do anything other than ministry, he ought to do it. I am not speaking of qualifications, I am talking about passion. I am a trained architect from before ministry, but I felt called to ministry and never deviated from that passion, even though at some point I engaged in architecture as a means of support when my church could not raise sufficient funds to pay me.

I hope this makes clear my viewpoint on what drives me to service.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[BobRyan]

What specific verse in Romans 11 are you referring to? The beginning of the chapter tells you who he is writing to.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

and forgiveness revoked, show me that also???

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

The underlined motive and emotion is "fear" in vs 20.

 

[LeBuick]

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

The underlined motive and emotion is "fear" in vs 20.

Paul is speaking about those of the Jewish faith who stubbornly stuck with the Jewish tradition and rejected the blood of Chirst. They clung to the law so never accepted the gift of grace. Those are the ones who were part of the natural vine (Israel) but were removed for unbelief. Please notice they were not removed for disobedience to the law, they were removed for unbelief. Lack of FAITH got them removed. You are not saved without FAITH.

In this case the Church (or Paul says Gentiles) is that which was graffed in to the vine. Being graffted into the vine gives us access to that which is given by the root. Fruit bearing eternal life. Some believe the same applies to John 15 (the true vine).

In verse 20 he is not saying to be afraid, he is saying to respect how you got there. Those who are arrogant or "highminded" cherish proud thoughts about themselves. They believe it is their goodness, their obediance, it is they who keeps them on the vine (or can get them removed). This attitude doesn't display the proper fear and respect for what God has done. Our relationship with God is to be one of humble dependence on Him and not one of boastfully touting our accomplishments or abilities.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LB: Why do you feel one needs to be "motivated" to serve the Lord or "motovated" to remain saved? You implying God has a scare tactic to keep you on the strait and narrow?

HP: One needs to be motivated or influenced to salvation because salvation is a gift that must be accepted by the fulfilling of the conditions God has mandated. There is nothing in and of our own selfish wills that would motivate us to repentance and obedience. We need the influences God places at our disposal to turn to Him.

If a blind man was walking along the brink of a cliff, and another shouted out a warning of impending doom, would you consider that warning a scare tactic?

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

LB: Even if I were to stray to a far away country (which I have no current plans of doing), I am still his child. Not only will the Father be watching and waiting for my return, the Good Shepard promised He will leave the rest of the sheep and come looking until He finds me. When he finds me, and he will find me, he will ride me on his shoulder back to the fold.

HP: Why the need to go looking for one that is still in the fold according to you? You make staying in the fold a necessity, an impossibility to leave. Scripture represents the fold as something we can indeed leave. There is no indication whatsoever that once we do we are of necessity still considered as part of the fold or that regardless of our wonderings all is well with our salvation in the end. Neither does the illustration of sheep and the Shepard avoid the reality that we are not mindless sheep, but moral agents with a will, a will that God does not force or coerce. We must open the door of our hearts in repentance, faith, and obedience if we are to take shelter with the Good Shepard of our souls.

LB: This is not a free license to Sin. One because I no longer live after the flesh so no longer desire the things of the flesh;

HP: I am not disputing how you live with my following questions. I am just doing some follow up. If sin does not separate you from God and find you the recipient of the laws penalty for sin, how is this not a license to sin? If you do not live after the flesh and have ‘no desire’ for the things of the flesh, are you telling me that you do not sin and that you have no temptation to sin?

LB: But I likewise don't live in the bondge of fear regarding if I break a law or slip of the strait and narrow;

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

HP: This verse does not negate the fact that if one sins one indeed finds himself under the bondage of sin, but rather is speaking to the individual that has a pure heart before God, that individual has no fear. If you do not fear when you know you have transgressed the law of God, you are insensitive to the danger you are in.

LB: secondly, because I now have a new perspective of life which was caused by my new birth.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

HP: Note that the author is exhorting the believer NOT to be conformed to this world, and to be transformed, to the end ‘that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.’ If it all was accomplished at the new birth and no continued effort on our part was needed, such exhortation would be meaningless.

LB: My life is no longer in my hands or subject to my actions, it is in the Lords hands which are far more capable hands. Look at what the Lord said in his prayer;

HP: Tell that to a judge and a jury.

I can think of no greater deception than to believe this. It is almost as if though if one sins having been born-again, if anything is done displeasing to God, it is as if though it is all His fault for my life is not subject to my actions or in my hands. What? If our life is not subject to our actions or in our hands, something else is responsible for our actions and is the cause of it.

Scripture soundly refutes such an outlook, and holds everyman accountable for his actions and even his idle words. All will give an account at the judgment for every deed and every idle word. We are moral creatures, and as such the responsible agent for all our actions, saint and sinner alike.

LB: The gift I was given was eternal life.

HP: The question remains, will you have an Advocate to plead your case at the final judgment? Nothing short of a life of obedience will suffice for that end.

LB: It was not limited eternal life or conditional eternal life, it was eternal with no strings attached. Who so ever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. This is the passion that makes me serve the Lord, I don't serve Him to be saved, I serve Him because I am saved.

HP: You believe a half truth at best. You are right that we do not serve Him to be saved, but neither will any be saved without serving Him in obedience to His Word.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jim 1999: Ceasing from sin, and sinless perfection are two different things. Ceasing from sin is a self-determination to not willingly sin.

HP: When one ceases to sin, is he yet sinning or has one ceased from it? Can one sin without willful intent? Can you site a Scriptural example to substantiate your position? Can you give us a Scriptural definition of sin that sets forth sin as something other than a willful transgression of a known commandment of God?

 

[LeBuick]

You believe a half truth at best. You are right that we do not serve Him to be saved, but neither will any be saved without serving Him in obedience to His Word

Even if they have faith? How can you deny someone with faith can be saved?

You have placed yourself in bandage to the penalty of the law. I can understand how Jews who lived during the bible days could do this, it was a way of life to them. You take scripture and argument that was intended for Israel and apply them to the Church. The Church and Israel are not the same. Israel was a chosen people who were once Children of God but some lost their inheratence by not believeing in the Son. Every scripture I've seen you guys use is about Israel and not the Chuch.

I fell bad for ya because you are counting on the law to get you to the kingdom. For me and my house, we depend on grace.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LB: Even if they have faith? How can you deny someone with faith can be saved?

HP: If one truly has faith, they will be of the faith, and if they are of the faith, they are obedient to His Word. “Show me your faith without your works, but I will show you my faith by my works, for faiths without works is dead being alone.” Let me ask you. Will dead faith save anyone?

LB: You have placed yourself in bandage to the penalty of the law.

HP: If the speed limit is 50 and I am driving in obedience to the law, am I under bondage to it? I would consider being under bondage to it if in fact I was driving 70 and saw flashing red lights in my rear view window. Likewise, one is only under bondage to the law when they transgress the law. We should, as believers, order our lives in such a way as to be in accordance to God’s law, and as such not under any bondage to it regardless of its penalty for disobedience still being in effect.

LB: I can understand how Jews who lived during the bible days could do this, it was a way of life to them. You take scripture and argument that was intended for Israel and apply them to the Church. The Church and Israel are not the same. Israel was a chosen people who were once Children of God but some lost their inheratence by not believeing in the Son. Every scripture I've seen you guys use is about Israel and not the Chuch.

HP: “He that saith he loveth me and keepeth not my commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.” Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;” Are you sure that every Scripture we point to is addressed only to Israel? I suppose that might be true as long as one defines a true Israelite as Paul did, but of course that would make every true Israelite a member of the church.

LB: I fell bad for ya because you are counting on the law to get you to the kingdom. For me and my house, we depend on grace.

HP: The blood of Jesus Christ and the following verse is my hope. 1Co 10:13 “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

 

[Darron Steele]

Okay, it has now been over 48 hours since I created this thread.

The vote count is now 14-0 in favor of the second option.

I do not mind if people debate "OSAS"/Eternal Security/Perseverance on basis of the Scriptures -- but I like to see it done without bogus accusations, without bogus revilings, and charitably.

I have to admit that I am annoyed by one thing about the poll count: we have multiple people here who seem to think that "Once Saved Always Saved" is a dangerous doctrine because it "tickles" "ears" and/or makes sin `okay' and leads to wanton disobedience. In their views, if Hell is not still a possibility for believers, there is no reason to serve the Lord; why has not a single one of them voted his genuine attitude?

These people create posts after posts attacking Christians who believe in any variations of "OSAS"/Eternal Security/Perseverance as simply wanting to `get out of' serving the Lord. Such accusations are neither charitable nor generally accurate. Evidently, wanting to serve the Lord on the principle of wanting to please Him does not seem a viable motive to these people.

Now that they are faced with the implications of their views, it seems that they do not even want to acknowledge their attitudes with an anonymous vote.

I wish this would influence future posts by these people, but I suspect that is wishful thinking. However, this thread may come in handy in the future.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DS: is no reason to serve the Lord; why has not a single one of them voted his genuine attitude?

HP: Because the questions of the poll cannot be chosen one over the other. Both are legitimate motivations, and cannot be measured in strength, one over the other. Certainly we should fear lest we come short of the promises of God and fail to persevere, yet who can say as a believer that we do not desire to please the Lord? Heb 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

These differing motivations cannot be chosen one over the other in my opinion. That is why I for one did not vote.

This poll is a prime example of what is wrong with the findings of most polls. The wording, or lack thereof, determines the results, and the results really show nothing in respect to uncovering truth.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I couldn't answer the question either way. First, I believe that a person who is truly saved cannot lose their salvation. The second because I'm not sure about a human being a "source of happiness" to God.

I serve the Lord because I want to obey Him. I serve the Lord out of gratitude for what He has done for me. I serve the Lord because in it I have fellowship with Him and with others of His people.

 

[Darron Steele]

I couldn't answer the question either way. First, I believe that a person who is truly saved cannot lose their salvation. The second because I'm not sure about a human being a "source of happiness" to God.

I serve the Lord because I want to obey Him. I serve the Lord out of gratitude for what He has done for me. I serve the Lord because in it I have fellowship with Him and with others of His people.

You would have voted the second option. You want to serve the Lord out of gratitude for what He has done for you, because you know that would please Him.

 

[Darron Steele]

HP: Because the questions of the poll cannot be chosen one over the other. Both are legitimate motivations, and cannot be measured in strength, one over the other. Certainly we should fear lest we come short of the promises of God and fail to persevere, yet who can say as a believer that we do not desire to please the Lord? Heb 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

These differing motivations cannot be chosen one over the other in my opinion. That is why I for one did not vote.

This poll is a prime example of what is wrong with the findings of most polls. The wording, or lack thereof, determines the results, and the results really show nothing in respect to uncovering truth.

Heavenly Pilgrim: I used the word "closest" for a reason. What motivation is closest to yours?

They are not mutually exclusive. Some Christians serve the Lord mainly out of gratitude, and/or because they want to please Him out of love, while still believing it is possible to lose salvation -- they would still vote option 2.

It is NOT which you think is more valid. The question did not ask that. It is `Which is CLOSEST to YOUR MAIN motivation?'

The poll was meant to contrast those who it takes threat of Hellfire to get to serve the Lord, versus those who do so more out of their own willingness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DS: The question did not ask that. It is `Which is CLOSEST to YOUR MAIN motivation?'

HP: Let me say it anther way. There is no ‘main motivation.’ We are simply motivated by many means. One is not closer to being ‘the main’ than the other, there are simply different motivations, all working towards one end, i.e., obedience out of a heart of benevolence.

DS: The poll was meant to contrast those who it takes threat of Hellfire to get to serve the Lord, versus those who do so more out of their own willingness.

HP: Why do you believe that if it takes the threat of hell fire to serve the Lord that is somehow not done out of their own willingness, or it is opposed to doing it out of willingness?

Motives are often hard for us to pin point anyway. God is the only judge of them in finality. I believe that is why Paul clearly understood that he was not his own final judge, and it is said that God knows us better than we know ourselves. What does it matter what we say our motives are based upon now? Does that mean that such has to be the case? Could not a man be deceived as to his motivation in the here and now, to be revealed to us by God at the judgment? God is the only one that knows 'absolutely' our motivations in this pesent world, and will judge us accordingly and fairly in the end.

 

[steaver]

First off, that "one drop of blood" was enough to instill a certain passion to serve the One who was willing to die for me. That passion led me into the service, and that passion keeps me in His service, wherever that may lead.

Ceasing from sin, and sinless perfection are two different things. Ceasing from sin is a self-determination to not willingly sin. For example, the scripture says, "Be angry and sin not, but let not the sun come down on your wrath." The sin is not in the anger. The sin is in allowing the anger to continue. In essence the subject had ceased from sin, but had not achieved sinless perfection. The latter will come as we assume the heavenly body, and we become perfect in Him.

Peter certainly lived for the Lord. This didn't prevent him from entering into dispute with Paul and separating from his fellowship. Still, Peter had ceased from sin, but he honestly disagreed with Paul and went off in a different direction.

I may very well disagree, and strongly so, with some groups of people. This is not willfully sinning. The wilful sin is when I deny those folks fellowship in our common Lord.

An example of this I shall take from my life. Early on my fellowship was with a dispensational group. I disagree most strongly with that teaching. The sin would not be the disagreement on that particular doctrinal difference. The sin would be if I severed a personal relationship, that exists in the Christ, with those people. The truth is I have always maintained the kindest of relationships and thoughts for my colleagues, even though we followed different doctrinal paths.

In my opinion, if one does not have that "garden" passion, one should not entertain ministry. If one can do anything other than ministry, he ought to do it. I am not speaking of qualifications, I am talking about passion. I am a trained architect from before ministry, but I felt called to ministry and never deviated from that passion, even though at some point I engaged in architecture as a means of support when my church could not raise sufficient funds to pay me.

I hope this makes clear my viewpoint on what drives me to service.

Cheers,

Jim

AMEN Jim!!:wavey: :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

These people create posts after posts attacking Christians who believe in any variations of "OSAS"/Eternal Security/Perseverance as simply wanting to `get out of' serving the Lord. Such accusations are neither charitable nor generally accurate. Evidently, wanting to serve the Lord on the principle of wanting to please Him does not seem a viable motive to these people.

You got it! :thumbs:

All of the christians I know that are OSAS camped love and serve the Lord. 100% of them and I know hundreds. In fact they weep at the thought of doing something of sin to dishonor our Lord. Yet every opponant of OSAS will always put in their plug that OSAS just wants to get away with sinning.

I have never confronted a christian who was out of fellowship with God, caught up in sin, (and I have confronted many) who said to me "Hey, OSAS right? So I can sin all I want!" . No, everytime I confronted a christian about their sin I was met with remorse and thankfulness that I was concerned for them. Never did I hear "who cares, I'm going to heaven anyway". True christians NEVER say OSAS so sin does not matter. Never! It is a lie preached over and over by the opponants of OSAS.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

The underlined motive and emotion is "fear" in vs 20.

Paul is speaking about those of the Jewish faith who stubbornly stuck with the Jewish tradition and rejected the blood of Chirst. They clung to the law so never accepted the gift of grace. Those are the ones who were part of the natural vine (Israel) but were removed for unbelief.

Are you saying that they were kicked out of physical Israel OR are you saying that this was the "church" as in "spiritual Israel" that they were kicked out of??

Paul argues that you can only REMAIN IN the condition where they WERE - "by faith". I Timothy Paul argues that Timothy and his godfearing grandmother and mother were STANDING in that condition by faith and that they did not "Fall out" as did the other Jews who went on to reject the Messiah.

Paul never argues that "they are IN WITHOUT faith but eventually when not havng faith long enough - are then removed". Paul always argues that the only way to be IN that olive tree is to be IN a condition of faith.

Please notice they were not removed for disobedience to the law, they were removed for unbelief. Lack of FAITH got them removed. You are not saved without FAITH.

That is the problem for OSAS - they could not have been "in" in the first place without FIRST having faith for there is no way to get INTO spiritual Israel apart from faith and so those who REMAIN remain by faith.

In this case the Church (or Paul says Gentiles) is that which was graffed in to the vine. Being graffted into the vine gives us access to that which is given by the root. Fruit bearing eternal life. Some believe the same applies to John 15 (the true vine).

Paul does not argue that the Church "is onlly gentiles" rather he himself is part of the church and HE says He is a Jew.

When Paul says "you should fear" what motive is appealed to - and "why fear" if "being removed" is an impossibility?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: All of the christians I know that are OSAS camped love and serve the Lord. 100% of them and I know hundreds. In fact they weep at the thought of doing something of sin to dishonor our Lord. Yet every opponant of OSAS will always put in their plug that OSAS just wants to get away with sinning.

HP: Weeping over sin is no certain sign of any Scriptural condition. Weeping is part and partial to the sensibilities, and as such not moral n nature in the least. I can remember as a sinner coming home intoxicated and weeping that I was wasted again. Was that any sign of true repentance? No way. The proof it was not is the fact that I went out the next night to repeat the process.

I am not suggesting that weeping does not accompany true repentance, but the proof of the pudding lies in whether or not ones actions seriously change. What good does it do to weep over ones sins just to turn once again to them? When one preaches that one cannot help but sin, and that continually, how can repentance be accomplished? Unless we repent, we shall all likewise perish according to Scripture. When we preach that nothing we do has any effect on our salvation, that is a license to sin, and if in fact we do not sin, it is not because of the doctrines we preach, but in spite of them.

Steaver: I have never confronted a christian who was out of fellowship with God, caught up in sin, (and I have confronted many) who said to me "Hey, OSAS right? So I can sin all I want!" . No, everytime I confronted a christian about their sin I was met with remorse and thankfulness that I was concerned for them. Never did I hear "who cares, I'm going to heaven anyway". True christians NEVER say OSAS so sin does not matter. Never! It is a lie preached over and over by the opponants of OSAS.

HP: Again, being convicted of sin or being remorseful for sin is not necessarily repentance. Remorse must be coupled with having a new attitude concerning sin, and turning from sin. If there is no turning from sin, there is no repentance, and without true repentance all shall indeed likewise perish.

It is not that those preaching OSAS say that sin does not matter. It is that by the approach they take, and the removal or twisting of the Scriptural punishment for sin via a false view of the atonement, they remove the fear or stigma of sin. They gloss over the real warnings of Scripture to the believer concerning the fate of those that continue in sin, and as such breed into their followers an attitude that somehow I can sin and escape the fate that all other sinners have as their only hope, doing the same things. OSAS breeds a careless and dangerous attitude towards sin and it’s punishment. I believe it has and does delude multitudes into believing they possess something that in reality they do not. Apart from those within that camp that live holy lives in spite of their doctrines, it will take a voice from some other camp to ever awaken the others living and practicing sin to the deceitfulness and rewards of sin that none practicing such a lifestyle will escape from.