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What motivates you to serve the Lord?
- Thread starter Darron Steele
- Start date
I am speaking in general. I say you're interpreting or applying a scripture wrong and you will say that I am interpreting or applying scripture wrong. We both give our reasons for our conclusions and both will disagree with each others reasons for those conclusions. I was merely pointing out that neither side wants to ignore or delete verses as you suggest. Each side will have what they believe to be a sufficient explanation or interpretation for the so called "trouble passages" for either pov.
God Bless! :thumbs:
Darron Steele
New Member
Darron Steele said:
BobRyan: this gets annoying.BobRyan said:
First, you have tried to convert this thread into a debate over Eternal Security/Perseverance, when I have been clear that it is not. Most posters here have caught that this thread is not over a religious tenet, but a person's personal motivation for serving the Lord.
Second, just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that s/he disagrees with the Lord. I do not recognize any mortal's pretension to this -- including the pope's or yours.
I believe every single unit of text in Scripture is exactly what God wanted written down. I believe that it teaches that once a person becomes a believer, s/he remains one. Do I have all the answers on the texts that may suggest the contrary? No. However, if I was to reject the belief I currently have, I would have no explanations for the texts that I believe do teach that a believer remains a believer.
Now, does it affect how I live my life for the Lord? Absolutely not. I want to serve the Lord for the rest of my life; I want my life to be pleasing to Him. I believe the Bible passages that teach that Christians should be motivated by other things than fear.
Numerous believers from both sides of the disagreement over whether or not salvation is ever lost feel likewise. The religious tenets themselves are not the issue here, as has been pointed out to you multiple times as you tried to divert the thread.
You are one of the `sharp tongues' I created this thread for. As I posted to you previously here, it has long been your insinuation that so-called "Once Saved Always Saved" is only believed by people who want to sin. This conduct is quite uncharitable. Therefore, I clearly pointed out the implication: the only reason you can imagine to serve the Lord is that it beats Hell. You recognized it, tried to divert the thread's topic, and for the longest time refused to vote your genuine attitude if you ever did. You have refused to face up to that implication -- and rather than at least silently change, you have engaged in quite a bit of craftiness.
So to summarize, I get sick of your games. Most Christians do not play games like this. As long as you are going to play them, please do not bother to sermon me.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Well said. The Bible is not "up for a vote" taking some texts and ignoring others. It is too late to pretend that Romans 11, John 15 and Matt 18 "do not exist".
Wayyy too late to argue that Paul was "mistaken" in 1 Cor 9 when HE says "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified" from that Gospel which HE claims to result in eternal life.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The point here is that those who object to these texts by "pounding the pulpit" ranting and storming off in a huff - do nothing by way of "substantive argument" to support their views.
TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?
Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace
Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
In Christ,
Bob[/quote]
BobRyan said:
TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?
Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace
Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
In Christ,
Bob[/quote]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Darron Steele said:
#1. NONE of this is "you quoting me" to showing that I claim that ALL forms of OSAS reject perseverance.
#2. I HAVE explicitly pointed out a version of OSAS that DOES strongly affirm perseverance as do the 3 point Calvinists and 5 Point calvinists.
Instead of glossing over the points raised - why not read them and respond substantively?? Why do you choose to simply "pound the pulpit louder" instead??
in Christ,
Bob
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: As I told the list before, motives are often difficult to assess. I know that it is by our motives that we shall be judged, for all morality lies rooted in the motives, in the intent of the heart, and only subsequently in the outward action. Just the same, I can beat myself to death in the discovery of motives, but often have to just rest in the fact that I trust my motives are in accordance to love for God and not simply and solely some selfish indulgence or mere fear of punishment or gaining of rewards. God will be our Ultimate Judge. Will not the Judge of the earth do right?
In this life, amidst all the clamor of the spiritual warfare that is going on around and inside of us, we can often say about motives as the prophet Isaiah stated about the warfare of the warrior, Isa 9:5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood;” Down in the trenches sometimes we have to stick close to the one thing we can see, obedience, and reserve the judgment of our motives for the judgment yet to come.
In this world, we can not only disobey, but act out of wrong motivation. From our finite perspective, God must, in order to see to our final state as being found in and having Christ, motivate our wills by varying sources. In my own life, God has had to bring swift correction in the form of even physical suffering to awaken my attention not only to the sacrifice that was made on my behalf, but also to the fact that I am going to stand and give an account, and it may indeed be sooner than what I think or desire. Yes, God has instilled fear in my heart at times of standing before a Just and Holy God without having on the robe of righteousness that we must wear as guests to His marriage supper of the Lamb. Certainly fear has not been the only motivation granted to me by God, but it has been useful and has its place in God’s utility of securing my obedience.
You seemed to set forth that the only motivation you need is your love towards God. That has not been the case in my life, but I am NOT judging what has been the case in yours. If you are always obedient, and have never needed to have God instill fear in order to secure your obedience, that is indeed unusual but highly commendable. If you have fallen into disobedience, and had no fear of failing the grace that has been afforded you, you are like a blind man walking directly towards a precipice oblivious to the danger that stands ready to befall you on your present course aside from sincere repentance.
God has allowed others, born into circumstances of the flesh far more superior than we, continue on in their disobedience until the point that God spared them not. We are warned to fear lest God not spare us either. I for one believe that such fear in what much of the church lacks today, and is fueling the fires of sin and wickedness in the church today. Many today have lost the fear of God and His coming judgment as their lives bear testimony to that fact by the arrogance and presumptuous attitude towards their sins of disobedience, as 'if though' it matters not what they do, God has already forgiven them even before they commit the sin.
What I have witnessed is a careless presumption of God’s grace that I believe Scripture testifies to as the demise of many that profess to know Him. May that not be said of any of us on this board. There is certainly no reason why such should or has to be the case. May we allow every motivation that God places in our pathway to motivate us to purity of heart, mind and action.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: This is one comment I wish I had never read. It is a false as it is uncharitable. In all fairness to BR and the truth, this comment needs to be withdrawn IMHO.
Pure Love. I remember many years ago when I wasn't sure of my salvation. I was sitting under a tree, and all of a sudden from deep within these words just came from my mouth "Lord, even if you were to send me to hell, I would still worship you" and from that moment on I have known that I was one of His. And I have served Him with all of my soul ever since. Thank You Father!!!
Hope of Glory
New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
The comment that you are commenting upon is a typical debate tactic used on this board. Twist, distort and lie. (Not your comment, please understand, but the one upon which you are commenting.)
IOW, a person states that is one possibility, the other person comes back with, "So! You're saying that's the only reason?!?"
It's like if you were to ask me what I think is the best color for a car. So, I say "red". Then, you were to come back with, "So you say all cars are red?!?"
A person can serve out of love or fear. Both are serving. One brings much more joy.
My child can behave because he loves me and doesn't want to embarrass me, or he can behave because he fears the consequences of not behaving. Both are the same behavior, but one is more joyful.
To serve out of fear of going to hell will still cause you to serve.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Motives, what a great topic, yet an illusive one. Even in light of all we can discover, there will always remain mystery surrounding them. Motives are at the hearty of all morality, yet only God can judge them perfectly.
In light of the mystery surrounding motives, it would seem to me that we could make a statement. I am totally open to criticism in regard to this statement. I welcome debate concerning it. I am and will always be in the process of learning more about motives, and even possibly adjusting how I feel about them. I throw this out there as fodder.
It would seem to me, that if fear itself was the only motivation that motivated one to action, morality could not be predicated of the subsequent formation of an intent to avoid danger. The reason being that the sensibilities would be simply reacting to stimuli we are programmed to escape or flee from. Just the same, fear of something we have yet to realize is yet another matter. Take the truth of hell for instance. It does not just touch our sensibilities, for we have not been dangled over the flames literally, but God has chosen to induce the idea of eternal torment into our minds by way of Biblical truth. When we say we ‘fear’ such a fate, what in essence we are saying is that first and foremost we believe God’s Word concerning it by faith. Our fear is centered first in a belief by faith, and not fear in the sense of excited sensibilities. Therefore, fear must be thought of in at least two senses, one excited by the sensibilities, and yet another by a belief held and accepted by faith.
This leads me to conclude, that fear, in the sense of a belief held by faith in God’s Word is at the heart obedience. My question to the list is, can one be truly obedient to a truth of God and not be acting out of love in matters of beliefs that are a matter of faith as we direct our actions in accordance to the avoiding of such a fate such as hell?
I'm not sure, but I don't believe I ever said that I had no fear of the Lord. I once said in another debate that love is what motivates me to serve rather than rewards, but I don't believe I ever said the other.
However at the heart of the debate for me is not whether or not I am obedient out of love or out of fear, for me it is both, but rather the debate is the consequences of disobedience. God chasens us in many ways, but God does not threaten us with 1000 years of hell or salvation revoked for any disobedience.
God Bless! :thumbs:
Darron Steele
New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Heavenly Pilgrim took one extract out of a whole post. Perhaps I should lay some context for the existence of this thread.Hope of Glory said:
This thread was created with three people in mind. Their constant insinuations were that so-called "Once Saved Always Saved" views were held because their adherents wanted to sin. Two of these three have been absent from this thread, and I have not seen any more such smut out of them, and so I will not mention their names.
However, one of them has been active on this thread. Prior quotes of his that prompted this thread included:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1056069&postcount=87BobRyan said:
Now, in a thread he started with the express purpose of attacking "Once Saved Always Saved"
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035480&postcount=58
Very obviously, in his mind, to believe in "OSAS" means that we can say `peace and safety' and have no need to worry about serving Christ.
Therefore, I created this thread for two reasons:
1) To document, with numbers, that most Christians serve the Lord because they desire to;
2) To see if any of the insinuators would honestly consider the implication of their attitudes, even if just in the silence of their own thoughts. It was hoped that at least one of them would cease from the insinuations.
BobRyan's response was by no means this way. He refused to numerically register his attitude for the longest time leaving poll numbers of 0 to some number -- and tried to shift this into a debate about religious tenets in order to avoid the topic. He has persistently tried to portray this thread as a debate over religious tenets.
He also likes to allege that people who disagree with him really do not believe Scripture -- he even created a thread for the purpose of slandering DHK like this, which thankfully is now locked or he would still be doing this. He has tried the same thing here on this thread toward me repeatedly.
Finally, after a stream of posts of this nature, this post prompted me to reply to that mischaracterization:
BobRyan said:
So, Heavenly Pilgrim, the reply post you quoted from is:
TO BOTH: That post was not a debating tactic. I do not try to reason with BobRyan. However, he continued to pester me with repeated mischaracterizations, so I finally answered them.Darron Steele said:
I see nothing in that post which is false, and I did not see anything in that post that did not merit being said under the circumstances. I apologize for not documenting it more clearly. I do not apologize for the content of that post. I do have one regret about the content of that post: I regret that such things merited being said, as I do not enjoy this type of thing.
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My child also knows that when I punish him it will be for a purpose that I always explain, to alter a bad behavior. Never for the pleasure of punishment as an eye for an eye.
No one comes to Christ for a get out of hell free card. It does not work that way. You cannot threaten a person with hell to get them "saved" it won't work and if you get any confession it will be an empty one without the regeneration of Christ.
Likewise, threatening a believer with hell for disobedience will not motivate either because of the simple fact that the Holy Spirit in that believer will not convict the believer that it is a truth. My brother and his former pastor preach the 1000 years of hell as well but if you could watch their lives you wouldn't see much difference between them an any old average believer. They preach it but do not seem to concerned about it. I say they don't seem to awful convicted about it.
God Bless! :thumbs:
Darron Steele
New Member
I am going to respectfully disagree with this one. I did come to Christ in 1993 to get out of Hell.steaver said:
However, it was beginning that day when I wanted to serve the Lord because that is what is good and right, and I owed it to the Lord Who died in agony for me.
Exactly. To many Christians, these religious tenets have no real effect on how we live. We plan to serve the Lord forever -- period.
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Darron Steele
New Member
To my knowledge, no one here has done this.Hope of Glory said:
Myself personally, I see in Hebrews 13 that God chastizes His children when they `get out of line.' There is some basis for being motivated by fear in Scripture.
There is a possibility that Scripture does teach that Christians can lose salvation. I doubt that Scripture teaches it, but I certainly believe it is reasonable.
However, Scripture points to other reasons to serve the Lord besides fear.
John 8:31b, where Jesus says “If you continue in my word, then you are truly disciples of Mine” (NASB). Jesus says that His true disciples will continue in His teachings.
Titus 2:14 says that Jesus Christ died “that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works” (ASV). Scripture suggests that we should have a zeal to do what is good -- we should want to.
Paul writes at Romans 12:1 “Therefore I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s |mercies, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (TNIV|ESV). In light of God's mercy for us, we should gratefully serve the Lord.
Therefore, when it is insinuated that `removing the fear factor' is simply done to `allow sin,' this not only maligns character, but it is also contra-Scriptural. Scripture teaches that other motivations exist to cause believers to persevere in following Christ.Titus 2:14 says that Jesus Christ died “that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works” (ASV). Scripture suggests that we should have a zeal to do what is good -- we should want to.
Paul writes at Romans 12:1 “Therefore I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s |mercies, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (TNIV|ESV). In light of God's mercy for us, we should gratefully serve the Lord.
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