Hope of Glory
New Member
John 2:24: But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
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What must it be like -- to be wrong on a doctrinal POV?
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
EXACTLY. And so the question is what kind of "knowing" was Jesus talking about in this text of Lord, Lord? Well the context of the passage is works. So it is pretty apparent that He is speaking of knowing them in relation to their works. He never knew them because they were workers of iniquity. If you deny Me, I will deny you. The denying was in their works. And He denied knowing them based on their works of lawlessness.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
steaver said:
First of all that "getting whipped but I was right anyway" view has to be what the Sadducees were thinking when they debated Christ in Matt 22.
I agree that this is how most people view themselves whenever things are not going well for their argument.
So how do work on an objective way to tell the difference between that and "Actually being wrong" since those who ARE wrong view it ths same as you do above?
The point of this thraed.
in Christ,
Bob
This is true, so in the final analysis not all people that think they are being led by the Holy Spirit are actually being led by the Holy Spirit.
There's not a sure fire way other than Scripture to know whether or not one is being led by the Spirit or not. And the problem is that you sit two people down with Scripture you are going to get three different answers
.Hope of Glory
New Member
J. Jump said:
Yes, this word that is translated as "iniquity" is "lawlessness". It's doing what is right in your own eyes, instead of what the Lord wants. It can be homosexuals saying, "Surely God wouldn't have made me this way..." to someone who is doing truly good works, but doing them for their own reasons outside the will of God.
They called him Lord, Lord. 1 Corinthians 12:3 tells us, "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit."
They were saved individuals.
So, the argument has to come down to: Do they lose their salvation, or do they lose something else?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
J. Jump said:This is true, so in the final analysis not all people that think they are being led by the Holy Spirit are actually being led by the Holy Spirit.
There's not a sure fire way other than Scripture to know whether or not one is being led by the Spirit or not. And the problem is that you sit two people down with Scripture you are going to get three different answers
Ok so we have three born-again saved people who differ on any given subject that you list. They are all flled with the Holy Spirit but on subject "x" only one of them is being lead "by the Spirit of Truth" to "believe as they do".
Given that we ALL appear to differ on at least "some subject" on this board it is very VERY likely that ALL people posting are wrong on at least one topic (statistically speaking) but are thinking as you have stated that "they are getting whipped" on that subject just because "they did not have a deep enough understanding since of course they are right no matter how badly their point is fairing".
The JW's could say that, the Mormons, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, SDAs -- you name it.
The question is what is going to lead us away from turning a blind eye to our own "blind spot", stepping back from it and saying "HEY -- WAIT a Minute!! this IS in fact one of the BEST defenses of my POV and STILL it is not doing as well as I would like -- maybe I am wrong".:tonofbricks:
Thoughts?:type:
We have all met someone who has stopped being agnostic - to become Catholic -- someone who has stopped being Catholic to becme Presbyterian, stopped being Pres to become Baptist ... etc. So we KNOW this can be done friends!:1_grouphug:
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
steaver said:
Christ said "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord but he who DOES the Will oif My Father will enter the kingdom of heaven... and then those will say LORD LORD did we not cast out demons in your name... depart from Me I never knew you".
"IF you deny Me before men I will deny you before My Father in Heaven" Matt 10.
"IF WE Deny Him He will deny us" 2Tim 2.
2 Tim 2[/b]
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 [b]If we endure, we will also reign with Him; [b]If we deny[/B] Him, He also [b]will deny us;[/B]
13 [b]If we are faithless[/b], He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
in Christ,
Bob
Bob, you did not read all i said. You have a habit of only seeing something that you can re-word into a different answer.
You will see that i said SOMETIMES I changed my position because I was shown to be wrong. AND SOMETIMES I was right (or should have said, was found to be right after further study) but just wasn't knowledgeable enough to have been debating the doctrine.
You see? I was and am always willing to revist my position when some new information comes to my attention. I will always hold my position against those arguments that I have already researched and have found lacking.
God Bless! :thumbs:
Now think about this position. Here is a good opportunity to exercise what Bob is advocating here, which is to humble oneself and say "ok I am wrong".
For this position of yours to be true, we must believe that a person came to faith in Christ, was regenerated by God being given the Holy Spirit, was given the very Spirit of Christ, called by God a child of God..........then went their way.......maybe two years, maybe twenty years and NEVER did ONE work that would be seen by Jesus as worthy for a Christian to do...........NOT ONE.........for by your position, that it takes a worthy work to be KNOWN by Jesus in this passage.......Jesus said, I NEVER knew you!
Therefore, if Jesus NEVER knew this saved person by worthy works, then that means that we must believe that this born again Christian NEVER did ONE worthy work in their entire Christian walk.
Now do you really think that is possible? That a person can come to know Jesus Christ through faith and rebirth, experience the overwhelming forgiveness that has been bestowed upon them (i cried for days, still do), and then NEVER do ONE worthy work for God?
The word you must deal with is NEVER.
Refute or reconsider your position.
God Bless!:thumbs:
Well the question is does Scripture give us any other indications that this might be possible? The answer is yes it does. Just look to the parable of the talent, who produced nothing on what was given to him, but hid what he was given.
So the answer is yes I guess that is possible according to other Scripture. Now will you change your views?
First of all, you cannot prove that the worthless servant was "born again". So this passage does not support your view. I cannot change my view on the basis of the worthless servant.
Secondly, scripture does give us indications that it is indeed most likely impossible for a Christian to never do any worthy works.
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
It would be impossible to follow Jesus and NOT do a worthy work along the way. Would you seriously disagree?
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
ONLY a cup of cold water would be a worthy work. Do you still believe it is possible for a born of God disciple of Jesus Christ to NEVER have done a worthy work?
God Bless!
You are right I can't "prove" anything. Thankfully it is not my job either. If you don't see it you don't see it. If you don't want to see it, you don't want to see it. If you see it and ignore it, then you see it and ignore it.
I can't make you see anything. And I certainly can't make you believe anything. Again thankfully that's not my job.
However, there is nothing in the text that indicates this man was eternally damned. Why would the Master give an eternally damned person a portion of His goods?
I don't see any indication in Scripture where God gives His porition of goods to unsaved folks.
Actually it does as does a number of the other parables.
Now that's not the language of someone that is convinced that their position is correct. Even you can not bring yourself to say it is impossible for a Christian not to do any good works.
Is it impossible or not?
No I would agree with that. However the key word you highlighted, but then ignored. The key word is follow. Do you think all saved people "follow" Jesus. Because it seems to be obvious that not all saved folks "follow" Jesus.
No. The key word in your statement is disciple. There is not a disciple that will NEVER do a good work. However not all saved people are disciples.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
steaver said:
In Matt 7 Christ is speaking to those who have full access to the Word of God. I believe that the Word of God instructing us - "can not be broken" that is - nothing can abolish it.
Christ just finished saying that those who teach others to disregrad God's Word would be called "least in the Kingdom" - when He added this part about those who "do not DO the will of the Father" in chapter 7 of Matthew.
in Christ,
Bob
Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
I was always taught that ALL wealth belongs to God and God chooses to give to the lost as well as to the saved. Do you not think that even the lost will be judged for what they did with what God had given them?
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Using the discernment that has been given me by the Spirit and knowing the scriptures that I have referenced I would have to say it is an impossibility.
Jhn 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
There you have a saved person credited for at least one worthy work. So the scripture does make it an impossibility afterall.
First, you agree, but you ask if all saved people follow Jesus. Let's see how Jesus answers that.......
Jhn 10:27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Sheep follow Jesus. Sheep are given eternal life. Sheep shall never perish. Yes, I would agree with Jesus that all saved people are following Jesus.
Jesus says that all saved people follow Him. How on earth did you come up with seperating a disciple from a born of God believer????
"The key word in my statement is disciple".........Your are really searching for an out brother! Disciple, sheep, believer, born of God, Christain, child of God, etc, etc........THEY ARE ALL ONE IN THE SAME!!!!!!
God Bless! :thumbs:
There are a number of things that I was "always taught" that haven' panned out to be true at all. The important things is not what I've always been taught, but what does Scripture say.
Again I see no indication in Scripture that God has given a portion of His goods to someone that is incapable of bringing a return on that investment. The worthless servant was expected to bring a return on his Master's goods. That is an expectation that can not be placed on the eternally damned because they are not even in a position to bring forth a return, so to expect something that is impossible just doesn't make sense.
A saved person not ALL saved people. Big difference. Again you have provided no Scripture that says it is impossible not to do any good works.
Well you keep looking through those rose colored glasses if you want to, but not all saved people "follow" Jesus. If that was the case you wouldn't have all kinds of false doctrines and denominations. So what you are left with is that those folks aren't really saved and there is only one denomination that is going to be saved, which is incorrect.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say ALL SAVED PEOPLE follow Him. If it does please provide the text, because you haven't given it yet. All you have said is My sheep shall hear my voice and follow me. That is talking about already saved individuals hearing His voice and following Him. And only His sheep do it. Not all saved people are sheep.
It's very easy. You just follow what Scripture says. Disciples are ones that are actively believing, actively seeking, actively obeying, actively confessing, actively loving Him and his neighbor and his brothers, etc.
Sorry not all saved people do that. You can look on this board here and see that there are some folks that aren't loving their brothers and sisters.
The reality of the saved world is there are sheep and goats. There are faithful and unfaithful. There are believers and unbelievers. They are the obedient and the disobedient. There are the overcomers and those that are overcome.
Well you were correct until you added in child of God. A child of God can be those things, but they are not automatically those things. But if you want to go on believing that way you are more than welcome, but don't be shocked on Judgment Day!
Hope of Glory
New Member
Here's a question: If there were 10 servants given pounds, and two of them were dealt with postitively, and one was chastized, what happened to the other 7?