What must it be like -- to be wrong on a doctrinal POV?

[BobRyan]

Bob, you did not read all i said. You have a habit of only seeing something that you can re-word into a different answer.

Lighten up a bit. I actually did read "all" you wrote - and though I am glad to see that you did have moments where you were willing to consider other options with an open mind -- the part where you stated the "whipping" comment about your argument not fairing well illustrates the problem I am trying to highlight.

My argument is not that this is an issue with Steaver -- it is that it is an issue with humans.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"IF you deny Me before men I will deny you before My Father in Heaven" Matt 10.

"IF WE Deny Him He will deny us" 2Tim 2.

2 Tim 2[/b]
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 [b]If we endure, we will also reign with Him; [b]If we deny[/b] Him, He also [b]will deny us;[/b]
13 [b]If we are faithless[/b], He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

Simple question for Steaver - if you look at the context of the Matt 10 statement is Christ urging the 12 evangelists to - "get saved" or to "endure" and persevere in spite of perscution that temps us to fear and give up?".

viewing the context for the 2Tim 2 statement above is Paul urging "perseverance" or is his argument "if you are saved then you will be saved.. but if you are not saved now then you will never be saved"???

If you choose "saved not-saved" instead of "perseverance" then when we do evangelism should we be telling people "If you are not saved then you will not ever be saved"???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Why keep playing the role of the blind Sadducee time after time after time?

J Juimp
Well there are a number of possible reasons. For pastors having to enter the pulpit and admit that something they had been teaching their congregation and that is held as church tradition is actually incorrect is probably too much for many of them to endure.

Some of the things that would have to admit to would drive the crowds away and they wouldn't be abe to fill as many pews, build as many buildings, have as big a salary, and the list could go on and on.

Ok - so granted that "for some" their livelihood depends on their preaching a soothing message the tickles the ears. I also agree to your implied point that the Sadducees would have had job-motivation to "not admit to Christ's point". However I suspect that for whatever motivation they not only did not choose to ADMIT to Christ's point about the resurrection being REQUIRED for the claim made to Moses to be valid -- I think they also refused to allow themselves to SEE that Christ's argument was clear and convincing. Even though the Pharisees saw the perfection of Christ's argument immediately!

But for many on this board I am not sure that their debate POV is motivated by job security and finances... though it may be motivated in part by a desire to hold the popular view on a given doctrine -- granted.

J Jump

For lay people it would mean that a pastor or commentator or Bible study teacher/SS teacher they hold high on a pedestal would be brought down if they were to admit to something being incorrect.

I don't really know why else a lay person wouldn't want to admit to Truth.

Possibly - but I almost never see a case on this board where two ro 3 opposing "debaters" show some kind of preference to defend some other Bible teacher. Usually they simply "circle back to what they have been told to believe" when they run out of answers - and they take it "personnaly" if the topic under discussion is not going well for their pet POV.

It seems like "human nature" says that we don't want to drop the issue of pride and simply objectively read the text!

So if you know that "Being a human" this is going to be your instictive reaction to "new truth" or truth that does not conform to your traditional view of the text - -how do you fght it?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
(Jump)........EXACTLY. And so the question is what kind of "knowing" was Jesus talking about in this text of Lord, Lord? Well the context of the passage is works. So it is pretty apparent that He is speaking of knowing them in relation to their works. He never knew them because they were workers of iniquity. If you deny Me, I will deny you. The denying was in their works. And He denied knowing them based on their works of lawlessness.

Steaver
Now think about this position. Here is a good opportunity to exercise what Bob is advocating here, which is to humble oneself and say "ok I am wrong".

For this position of yours to be true, we must believe that a person came to faith in Christ, was regenerated by God being given the Holy Spirit, was given the very Spirit of Christ, called by God a child of God..........then went their way.......maybe two years, maybe twenty years and NEVER did ONE work that would be seen by Jesus as worthy for a Christian to do...........NOT ONE.........for by your position, that it takes a worthy work to be KNOWN by Jesus in this passage.......Jesus said, I NEVER knew you!

Therefore, if Jesus NEVER knew this saved person by worthy works, then that means that we must believe that this born again Christian NEVER did ONE worthy work in their entire Christian walk.

Now do you really think that is possible? That a person can come to know Jesus Christ through faith and rebirth, experience the overwhelming forgiveness that has been bestowed upon them (i cried for days, still do), and then NEVER do ONE worthy work for God?

According to Romans 2 that is not possible.

According to Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them" where christ denies that there is such a thing as a good tree with no fruit or bad fruit - it is not possible to be saved without having works that SHOW the tree to be good.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Hope of Glory]

I think they also refused to allow themselves to SEE that Christ's argument was clear and convincing. Even though the Pharisees saw the perfection of Christ's argument immediately!

Matthew 13:15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

They shut them themselves, it wasn't done to them.

It seems like "human nature" says that we don't want to drop the issue of pride and simply objectively read the text!

That's one thing I like about you, Bob. Even though we disagree on what different passages mean, you are willing to look at what it says, and not simply close your eyes. (I think you just cross them a little bit...:wavey

So if you know that "Being a human" this is going to be your instictive reaction to "new truth" or truth that does not conform to your traditional view of the text - -how do you fght it?

You simply have to accept that the more you learn, the more you don't know.

One example of this was on something that I had been preaching that was poor translation in the KJV. However, I had to go to church and apologize, because it was good translation, but the English words had changed meaning over the years.

When I realized that "lost" and "unsaved" were not the same thing, I had to do some eating of crow. But, it tasted good! God had opened my eyes to understanding some difficult passages, and I was able to share it with my Greek teacher, who now makes the distinction when he preaches.

Crow isn't always bad.

 

[BobRyan]

Now I AM curious! -

Did you ever find a Bible text arguing for the "saved lost" or the "saved unsaved"??

 

[Hope of Glory]

Now I AM curious! -

Did you ever find a Bible text arguing for the "saved lost" or the "saved unsaved"??

I didn't have to specifically. Every single passage that uses the word "apollumi" is a Bible text that can be used. The word "apollumi", which is translated as "lost" can only apply to someone who has something to lose. The woman in Luke 15 could lose (same word) the silver coin unless she had it in the first place. You can't lose a $20 bill you never had. They are perishing; they are losing thier life. Only saved people have a life to lose.

So, what does that mean? Does that mean they become unsaved?

In Matthew 8:25, where his disciples came to him, woke him, and said, "save us, we are perishing", it wasn't a bunch of non-existent people saying it.

 

[steaver]

Now I AM curious! -

Did you ever find a Bible text arguing for the "saved lost" or the "saved unsaved"??

Bob, you and I disagree and debate (my wife calls it argue) alot. But you have no idea how far off Hope and Jump are when it comes to confusing bible terms and interpretations. You are going to open a BIG can of worms if you get too curious and ask too many questions! :laugh:

So Bob, you see how Jump has totally ignored the facts I presented (with much scripture) that a born of God Christian WILL HAVE some worthy works to their credit which TOTALLY refutes his position that Matt 7 is speaking of Jesus NEVER knowing the saved by their works. ( You even showed scripture that Jesus said good trees are known by their works) .

Jump stands firm that a person can be born of God and live without even one worthy work. Not even a cup of cold water offered to another. Anyone with the Spirit of Christ would have to know in their heart, even apart from scripture, that this is just a very clear impossibility.

Yet Jump refuses to change his view about the interpretation of the passage. Would you say that this is what you are eluding to in the OP? Jump will NEVER abandon the position if he cannot see the black and white flaw in his view of Matt 7s "I NEVER knew you".

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

It seems like "human nature" says that we don't want to drop the issue of pride and simply objectively read the text!

Pride is a HUGE part of it. I would agree. Like I said I think this issue is multifaceted for a number of different folks.

-how do you fght it?

Well I don't know what "the" answer is. I can only share what happened to me. About five years ago the Holy Spirit started to show me that some of the things that I had believed growing up may not be exactly true and that I needed to examine the Scriptures. And it was my prayer and still is that I would empty myself of everything that I had ever been taught and I would allow Him to teach me His Truth no matter what that delievered and no matter how difficult it would be.

I asked that He teach me personally through the Scriptures and that He would surround me with people that were teaching His Truth.

And I believe He has and is continuing to answer that prayer. Some of the things that have come down the pike have been difficult to swallow. Some things have been reconfirmed that I already believed, etc.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....Well I don't know what "the" answer is. I can only share what happened to me. About five years ago the Holy Spirit started to show me that some of the things that I had believed growing up may not be exactly true and that I needed to examine the Scriptures. And it was my prayer and still is that I would empty myself of everything that I had ever been taught and I would allow Him to teach me His Truth no matter what that delievered and no matter how difficult it would be.

I asked that He teach me personally through the Scriptures and that He would surround me with people that were teaching His Truth.

And I believe He has and is continuing to answer that prayer. Some of the things that have come down the pike have been difficult to swallow. Some things have been reconfirmed that I already believed, etc.

But brother, as God as my witness i lie not, I have done the EXACT same thing as you have said here. And I have come to a very different conclusion than yourself. So where does that leave us?

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

So Bob, you see how Jump has totally ignored the facts I presented (with much scripture) that a born of God Christian WILL HAVE some worthy works to their credit which TOTALLY refutes his position that Matt 7 is speaking of Jesus NEVER knowing the saved by their works. ( You even showed scripture that Jesus said good trees are known by their works) .

Jump stands firm that a person can be born of God and live without even one worthy work. Not even a cup of cold water offered to another. Anyone with the Spirit of Christ would have to know in their heart, even apart from scripture, that this is just a very clear impossibility.

Yet Jump refuses to change his view about the interpretation of the passage. Would you say that this is what you are eluding to in the OP? Jump will NEVER abandon the position if he cannot see the black and white flaw in his view of Matt 7s "I NEVER knew you".

Steaver the exact same thing could be said of you. You are clearly ignoring Scripture that I have given that says in fact someone can produce nothing of value in the parable of the talents and pounds. All you have is that servant can't be saved, but you have no evidence of that. Scripture doesn't even come remotely close to suggesting that.

See this is the silliness that some of these worthless debates evolve into. And unfortunately I let myself get dragged back into them when I tell myself I'm not going to. I guess I"m always holding out hope, but it never fails this is what we get to.

I'm not ignoring ANY Scripture. I know you think I am, but I'm not. I'm just not accepting your "twist" on them. And I know you could say the same about me, as you really already have.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree because we're just going to go through the same old stuff time after time.

But let me just add one thing to your affirmation of Bob's "proof" text. That text is speaking of false teachers not of the general population of saved individuals. Now I know that won't mean anything, but just want to set the record "straight."

 

[J. Jump]

But brother, as God as my witness i lie not, I have done the EXACT same thing as you have said here. And I have come to a very different conclusion than yourself. So where does that leave us?

Well like I said above it leaves us agreeing to disagree. And in the final analysis one of us is going to be surprised when they stand before the Judge and the future of the saved individuals play out. So only time is going to determine which of us was actually led by the Sprit, because the Spirit is not leading both of us on this matter.

 

[steaver]

Lighten up a bit. I actually did read "all" you wrote - and though I am glad to see that you did have moments where you were willing to consider other options with an open mind -- the part where you stated the "whipping" comment about your argument not fairing well illustrates the problem I am trying to highlight.

My argument is not that this is an issue with Steaver -- it is that it is an issue with humans.

in Christ,

Bob

Brother, do you see the deep seated attitude that you have towards me for opposing your views?

Here is what you gathered from my post......."I am glad to see that you did have moments where you were willing to consider other options with an open mind"............... I don't have "moments", I am always willing to consider other options with an open mind. Where my mind "appears" to be closed ( and yours as well) is where we have already went over and over the same text and we each could not see the others pov as just.

the part where you stated the "whipping" comment about your argument not fairing well illustrates the problem I am trying to highlight.

Not really. I went away whipped because I was ignorant, a babe in Christ. I went back to study and prayer to see if I was right or wrong. Sometimes I was wrong and sometimes i was right. I did not go away with my pov concreted into my mind and determined to find a way to defend it. I went away with an understanding that i wasn't really prepared or sure that i was believing the way i should be as to being inline with scripture.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....Well like I said above it leaves us agreeing to disagree. And in the final analysis one of us is going to be surprised when they stand before the Judge and the future of the saved individuals play out. So only time is going to determine which of us was actually led by the Sprit, because the Spirit is not leading both of us on this matter.

Well said. Hey, we AGREE on something! :godisgood:

I believe that is why there are different positions given in the 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth. We will be judged on how we built our doctrine and deeds upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Fair ye well brother!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....I'm not ignoring ANY Scripture. I know you think I am, but I'm not. I'm just not accepting your "twist" on them.

You will have a tough time convincing me that the Spirit alone does not tell you that it would be impossible for a born again Christian to NEVER have one worthy work to their credit. Regardless of any knowledge of any scriptures.

God Bless! :wavey:

 

[J. Jump]

You will have a tough time convincing me that the Spirit alone does not tell you that it would be impossible for a born again Christian to NEVER have one worthy work to their credit. Regardless of any knowledge of any scriptures.

That's just it...the Spirit is never going to reveal something that is contrary to the Word. The Word gives us clear examples that it is at least possible, so that's good enough for me.

 

[steaver]

Simple question for Steaver - if you look at the context of the Matt 10 statement is Christ urging the 12 evangelists to - "get saved" or to "endure" and persevere in spite of perscution that temps us to fear and give up?".

Christ is giving the disciples instructions and telling them the outcome of those who embrace Christ and those who reject Christ.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

Let me add something on works. Works are something that have to be done throughout the saved individuals lifetime. One can not give a cup of cold water in the right manner and then live like a heathen the rest of their life and expect to be well rewarded.

Entrance into the kingdom is about a lifetime of running the race. What you are describing is there are some people that will jump off the starting blocks and then just quit that will receive a prize. Or someone that runs a quarter of the race and then quits and will still receive a prize, or halfway or three quarters of the way. But that's not how it works. One has to "finish" the race before a prize is awarded.

Works should be thought of in this manner.

If a Christian produces just one piece of fruit in their lifetime the will receive what is coming to them, which will not be positive, but it won't be as bad as the person that did nothing.

We can't say that just because someone did "one" thing in their lifetime that they are going to rule and reign with Christ. That makes no sense on so many levels.

 

[steaver]

(Jump).......That's just it...the Spirit is never going to reveal something that is contrary to the Word. The Word gives us clear examples that it is at least possible, so that's good enough for me.

"Examples" (plural) ?

You gave one that had no salvation substance (faith) at all in it. Do you have others?

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

You gave one that had no salvation substance (faith) at all in it.

Eternal salvation was not in view no, but the salvation of the soul was definitely in view. And EVERYTHING has to do with faith when talking about saved folks. So I guess I'm not quite sure what you are asking here.

Do you have others?

Is one not enough? Is two not enough? How many do you need before you will be convinced?