What must it be like -- to be wrong on a doctrinal POV?

[BobRyan]

I actually agree with the view you see in Matt 7..."Christ is arguing explicitly that those who make statements of faith having "the words only" but do not have the obedience that is an absolute must will be condemned at the 2nd coming? According to Matt 7 with the claim "I am a good tree" there MUST be "The good fruit"."

So what is the problem?

God Bless! :thumbs:

The problem is that when MMAN posts a text in keeping with the context of Matt 7 you "appear" to climb all over his post AS IF the topic were Romans 3!

I am simply pointing out that in the case of MAtt 7 MMAN is making the right in-context statement.

Basically I was arguing the same point against your post to MMAN saying that you were picking the wrong context (Matt 7) to try and establish a debate over the Romans 3 "faith apart from works" teaching.

You then went so far as to try to get a snippet from Matt 7 to make your "no works please" argument.

Quote: Steaver said
Jesus said no! No more works! Believe on me and thou shalt be saved! Add your filthy rag works to my precious sacrifice and I will profess "I never knew you".



BobRyan said

A good example of a quote we do NOT find in Matt 7.

Credit where credit is due. If you are going to quote Matt 7 then use the actual argument OF Matt 7 in right context. In Matt 7 Christ is NOT making the argument that the error of the people is their works done in obedience to the Word of God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

As I said - each time you issue ad hominem attacks instead of showing substance in your posts - you exhibit the classic signs of a failing argument.

See this is comical. You start with the ad hominem attacks and you keep trying to say that I am the one that is failing in the argument. Bob you truly are a funny guy sometimes!

THIS is actually the characteristic of someone that has failed in their arugment. They are the ones that start with the attacks and then try to put the blame on the other person.

My objective is not to "try to convince a closed mind" as much as you may think that this is my goal - not on this thread nor on any of my threads.

Please show me where I stated this was your objective. That's not what I think at all. And I always find it funny that people will try to post on what I am thinking. You have no way of knowing that.

But if you ask I will be more than happy to share with you what I actually am thinking.

I am perfectly happy to leave this up to the reader to decide for themselves.

If that were actually a true statement then you would be content with leaving posts as they are instead of adding your silly, untruthful commentary towhat I have said. You are being deceptive at best!

The objective reaction WOULD have been to Respond to the point or simply admit that you argument has left you with no response.

I wonder why you haven't responded to Ephsians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 then . . . hmmmmm . . .

But as the OP points out - this is the classic sign of a defense that has run aground yet clung to "anyway".

And you have painted a picture of yourself very well Bob! Try dealing with how Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 can mesh with your conditional, works based eternal salvation plan. I'm still waiting.

 

[J. Jump]

It is a very good example of James' "said faith" that is only "lip service".

Steaver can you point out the verse where James uses "lip service?" I was unaware of that one.

 

[BobRyan]

Again in your twisted view of reality this may be a true statement.

Quote:

Bob said
As I said - each time you issue ad hominem attacks instead of showing substance in your posts - you exhibit the classic signs of a failing argument.

J Jump
See this is comical. You start with the ad hominem attacks

Now you are just making stuff up sir.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

J Jump
I wonder why you haven't responded to Ephsians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 then . . . hmmmmm . . .

If you have ever made an actual point from those texts that calls for any response at all please show it.

If you have nothing to point to -- no question -- no fact -- then why "make more stuff up" in post after post?

I thought you were still working on a way to get "depart from me I never knew you" to mean "come on into the eternal bliss of heaven".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

(mman)....Believe is not narrow and that is seen just a few verses later. Those sincere believers were LOST! Those believers were on the broad way. They were false teachers.

Read the conclusion, don't make up your own.

"Sincere believers lost"

Then unsincere believers are the saved ones?

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

Now you are just making stuff up sir.

No sir I am not. I think that is plainly obvious to anyone that reads this thread.

If you have ever made an actual point from those texts that calls for any response at all please show it.

Well for starters let's just take Ephesians 2:8-9 which says we are saved by God's grace through faith apart from our works.

That alone is enough to shoot down your works based doctrine. But when we see that the verb is a perfect tense verb we see this salvation is a one time event in a person's past with the results lasting into the future. And on top of all that the event never has to be repeated.

This text alone makes a mockery of your conditional works based salvation. And this has been shown to you before in the past, but you didn't deal with it then and I would be surprised if you deal with it now.

I thought you were still working on a way to get "depart from me I never knew you" to mean "come on into the eternal bliss of heaven".

See this is another one of your ad homenims that you "claim" you don't do.

And no I don't need to get that text to say that, because it's not talking about eternity, so there is no need to try and make an apple into an orange or vice versa.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....Steaver can you point out the verse where James uses "lip service?" I was unaware of that one.

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Just saying you have faith does not save. Your works, good fruits, will be evident if you are truly born of God. (James)

Same goes for works apart from faith. Good works performed even in the name of God will not save (Matt 7). Jesus must know you personally through regeneration. (John 10)

Jhn 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jhn 8:43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

There Jesus declares that those having God as Father love Him and do hear His word. There is no such thing as a Christian born of God the Father who does not love Jesus.

Jhn 14:21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


There is no such thing as a born of God Christian who will be found without love for Jesus which is manisfested in commandment keeping and good works.

Matt 7 "I never knew you" can only be speaking to those who have never received Jesus as Lord and savior. Calling Him Lord on this judgment day of the sheep and goats (this is not the JSOC, only Christians are present there) is only an attempt to find yet another "loop hole" or way into the kingdom of heaven. These folks have no choice but to call Him "Lord, Lord" because they have seen HIs glory and power and have found themselves in a pickle. The now see that He is God!



God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

All those verses and yet not one of them said anything about "lip service."

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Just saying you have faith does not save. Your works, good fruits, will be evident if you are truly born of God. (James)

Same goes for works apart from faith. Good works performed even in the name of God will not save (Matt 7). Jesus must know you personally through regeneration. (John 10)

I actually agree with what you say here. But the question is save you from what? You are assuming it to mean salvation in the eternal sense, but context simply will not allow it, because eternal salvation is not based on works whether prior to, during or after. Works NEVER enter the equation.

You are simply backloading works into the salvation equation. No works means no works. I can not understand why people can't get that. It really does amaze me. Ephesians 2:8-9 couldn't be any clearer on the subject. No works means no works EVER.

James is not talking about eternally saving faith. He is talking to people that are already saved. He is talking about a present active faith. If this present active faith was something needed for eternal salvation then Ephesians 2:8-9 is simply lying because it says eternally saving faith is not present and active, but is a one-time faith that never has to be repeated. You simply can not get away from what the language says.

How you and others are trying to re-write the text is something like this . . . you have been saved by God's grace through faith, but if you stop working well you really weren't saved in the first place.

That's simply not what the text says. Leave the text alone and let it say what it says and mold your theology to mesh with the text not the other way around.

There is no such thing as a born of God Christian who will be found without love for Jesus which is manisfested in commandment keeping and good works.

That is simply unfounded opinion. You are riping texts from their "contexts" to "proof" text your way through your theology.

Matt 7 "I never knew you" can only be speaking to those who have never received Jesus as Lord and savior. Calling Him Lord on this judgment day of the sheep and goats (this is not the JSOC, only Christians are present there) is only an attempt to find yet another "loop hole" or way into the kingdom of heaven. These folks have no choice but to call Him "Lord, Lord" because they have seen HIs glory and power and have found themselves in a pickle. The now see that He is God!

There's no way in the world this can be the Great White Throne Judgment. The whole context of Matthew 7 is the gospel of the kingdom of the heavens. The judgment related to that happens before that takes place not afterward.

I'm done with this. You obviously have no desire to see Scripture any other way and that is obviously your choice, but don't be shocked at the outcome on judgment day! And if I'm wrong and you are right then we'll both be kickin' it on the streets of gold and all will be no big deal.

 

[BobRyan]

If J Jump (or anyone who believes that "I never knew you" means "saved and going to heaven STILL") can SHOW from Matt 7 that this is exegetically demonstrated FROM Matt 7 as the intent of Christ's words in Matt 7 pre-cross to the Jews... then instead of issuing ad hominem after ad hominem -- post something of substance.

The objective reaction WOULD have been to Respond to the point or simply admit that you argument has left you with no response.

Failing that - there is always ad hominem.

But as the OP points out - this is the classic sign of a defense that has run aground yet clung to "anyway".

 

[BobRyan]

Quote: from Steaver
Matt 7 "I never knew you" can only be speaking to those who have never received Jesus as Lord and savior. Calling Him Lord on this judgment day of the sheep and goats (this is not the JSOC, only Christians are present there) is only an attempt to find yet another "loop hole" or way into the kingdom of heaven. These folks have no choice but to call Him "Lord, Lord" because they have seen HIs glory and power and have found themselves in a pickle. The now see that He is God!

J Jump Said
There's no way in the world this can be the Great White Throne Judgment. The whole context of Matthew 7 is the gospel of the kingdom of the heavens. The judgment related to that happens before that takes place not afterward.

Read Rev 20 -- there is no GATHERING of the wicked BEFORE the literal 1000 years takes place at the Rev 19 appearing of Christ.

The Gathering of the wicked with interaction with God - only happens at the END of the 1000 years "OVER THESE" the second death DOES have power.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

Read Rev 20 -- there is no GATHERING of the wicked BEFORE the literal 1000 years takes place at the Rev 19 appearing of Christ.

Exactly! That's my whole point. However the context of Matthew 7 is BEFORE the 1000 years is over. It's actually before it ever begins.

Again contextually there is no way that your views and Steavers are even possible.

 

[J. Jump]

Failing that - there is always ad hominem.

But as the OP points out - this is the classic sign of a defense that has run aground yet clung to "anyway".

You would know, because you are the king of the ad hominem. And another classic sign is simply diverting attention away from something onto something else, which you have tried to do instead of dealing with a text that you can not honestly deal with and hold on to your views.

Still waiting on that Ephesians 2:8-9 explanation.

 

[BobRyan]

Still waiting on that Ephesians 2:8-9 explanation.

Hint: Ask an actual question. Make an actual statement to get a discussion on these texts if you actually have an interest in them.

J Jump
I wonder why you haven't responded to Ephsians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 then . . . hmmmmm . . .

Hint: If you have ever made an actual point from those texts that calls for any response at all please show it.

Suggestion: If you have nothing to point to -- no question -- no fact -- then why "make more stuff up" in post after post?

Observation:> I thought you were still working on a way to get "depart from me I never knew you" to mean "come on into the eternal bliss of heaven".

 

[steaver]

(Jump)............eternal salvation is not based on works whether prior to, during or after. Works NEVER enter the equation..............No works means no works. I can not understand why people can't get that. It really does amaze me. Ephesians 2:8-9 couldn't be any clearer on the subject. No works means no works EVER.

Amen! :thumbs:

(Jump)....How you and others are trying to re-write the text is something like this . . . you have been saved by God's grace through faith, but if you stop working well you really weren't saved in the first place.

That's simply not what the text says.

Agreed, that's simply not what the text says, nor do I.

(Jump)....There's no way in the world this can be the Great White Throne Judgment.

Agreed, I never said it was. It is the judgment of the sheep and goats Matt 25 at the end of the tribulation prior to the 1000 year reign of Christ. Goats go to hell, sheep enter the reign with Christ. The Judgment Seat of Christ is for the saved only, a judgment of deeds while done in the body. The Great White throne Judgment is for the unsaved only, no saved are said to be judged at this judgment.

(Jump)....And if I'm wrong and you are right then we'll both be kickin' it on the streets of gold and all will be no big deal.

We will both be there, just given different responsibilities as rewards for how we built our doctrines upon the foundation of Jesus Christ as well as deeds while done in this body. Isn't our Lord Great! Praise Him!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

Hint: Ask an actual question. Make an actual statement to get a discussion on these texts if you actually have an interest in them.

Nice diversion tactic Bob. I guess you missed Post #147 eh? Well here's a portion of it again. I believe it contians a statement. And just so you are left without excuse let me ask a question as well.

How do you get the truth of Ephesians 2:8-9 based on the language that is used to mesh with your doctrine of conditional works based eternal salvation?

Well for starters let's just take Ephesians 2:8-9 which says we are saved by God's grace through faith apart from our works.

That alone is enough to shoot down your works based doctrine. But when we see that the verb is a perfect tense verb we see this salvation is a one time event in a person's past with the results lasting into the future. And on top of all that the event never has to be repeated.

Hint: If you have ever made an actual point from those texts that calls for any response at all please show it.

Diversion - classic sign of argument running aground.

Observation:> I thought you were still working on a way to get "depart from me I never knew you" to mean "come on into the eternal bliss of heaven".

Silly observation Bob. I actually dealt with this in Post #147, but obviously that's the one you missed. Well here it is again:

And no I don't need to get that text to say that, because it's not talking about eternity, so there is no need to try and make an apple into an orange or vice versa.

 

[J. Jump]

It is the judgment of the sheep and goats Matt 25 at the end of the tribulation prior to the 1000 year reign of Christ.

That's possible, but what evidence is there to suggest that this judgment is "after" the tribulation? I see none in the text.

And even if it is that goes even further to prove my point. The judgment of Matthew 25 is a judgment of works. Those that did what they were supposed to got into the kingdm and those that didn't did not.

You just amened me that eternal salvation is not of works, so therefore a judgment of eternal salvation could not be a judgment based on works. Both Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 are judgments based on works. There is simply no contextual way that EITHER of these texts are dealing with eternal salvation. It is simply impossile.

If you say either of these judgments are eternal salvation judgments you can not agree with salvation is by God's grace through faith apart from works. These two ideas are diameterically opposed to each other. They are at odds not meshing.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The judgment of the sheep and goats is a judgement of works, true. Nevertheless it is a parable of the only judgment of the saved and unsaved, the judgment of the last day, and therefore it is THE judgment based on righteousness - righteousness unto salvation; and of justice: justice unto damnation.

How is it possible? It is only possible in that it is a judgment based on works; a judgment of the wicked upon their own works (and therefore justly unto their own damnation); and of the saved (or sheep) : their works being RECKONED to their righteousness and justification "even the righteousness of God", in Christ and through Christ. It's a parable illustrating the works of Jesus Christ, it being accounted the sheep of His keeping.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Remember your own slogan: Truth is true:
- even if no one knows it. - even if no one admits it. - even if no one agrees what it is. - even if no one follows it. - even if no one but God grasps it fully.

 

[BobRyan]

Post 147

Well for starters let's just take Ephesians 2:8-9 which says we are saved by God's grace through faith apart from our works.

That alone is enough to shoot down your works based doctrine. But when we see that the verb is a perfect tense verb we see this salvation is a one time event in a person's past with the results lasting into the future. And on top of all that the event never has to be repeated.

Eph 2
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "" Uncircumcision'[/b]' by the so-called "" Circumcision,'' which is performed in the flesh by human hands
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Now let's see - your bogus argument is that these verb tenses show it is IMPOSSIBLE for a change to take place?

How "instructive".

Clearly your argument is pigeon-holed in a corner trying to refute all of scripture based on a verb-tense argument that does not even hold in chapter 2 of Ephesians!!

But thanks for actually trying to make an argument from Eph 2 after talking about it as if you had.

in Christ,

Bob