What sealed the deal for you?

[EdSutton]

I looked forward to our second furlough and realized I might be asked some things, so I decided to research the issue. I read books on both sides, but something was missing, and that was a systematic treatment of the Word of God from the Word of God. I am very disappointed that so little thought has been given to what the Bible teaches about preservation.

First of all, I sought to rid myself of any prejudice on either side of the issue. Then I read through the KJV and marked in pink every single passage that dealt with the Word of God itself, marking in red particular passages that dealt with preservation. There are literally hundreds of such verses. I still have that Bible.

I then exegeted the passages and compiled the verses, noted trends and patterns, and put it all into an outline which ended up being 18 pages long. I highly urge this practice for all of you. After all, we are Baptists who believe in the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice, right? How can anyone possibly claim to have a Biblical position without studying thoroughly and systematically what the Bible says about a subject?

Here is a quiz to see if you really know the Bible on preservation.
(1) In what specific location is the Word of God perfectly preserved?
(2) Who was used by God in the OT to preserve the Word of God? (At least three names.)
(3) What class of people in the Bible is commanded to preserve the Word of God?
(4) Give two passages in the NT where a sentence is translated within the text from an original language.

If you can't answer these questions, forget it, you have no doctrine of preservation. I'm not trying to exalt myself. I'm just saying, the answers are all there in the Bible, but you must find them.

Well, I'm going to take a weak crack at your quiz, at least in part, off of the top of my head, without studying this in detail, specifically.

Question #1. This is not stated in either the KJV or NKJV. I cannot speak of another version.
Scripture says the LORD will preserve His words in Ps. 12: 6-7. It does not give the location where this will be done, to my knowledge. Ps. 119:89 says the words are "settled" in heaven, but that is not the same word.

Question #2. As to the written word, I believe Ezra was one, when he 'found' the Law of God, with Moses to be another; Joshua a third; and Isaiah a fourth, but there is a bit of interpretation in this. The phrase of "the word of God" does not occur in this exact manner, with this stated, that I see. Moses was responsible for putting the specific decalogue into the Ark of the Covenant. Joshua wrote into the Book of the Law, and Isaiah was told that his words would not depart "forevermore". (Isa. 59:11)

Question #3. I have heard this said to be the priests or Levites, if memory sreves, but am not actually sure about this, exactly. The 'Scribes' had something to do with this, as well. (Jer. 8:8; 36:21)

Question #4. There are at least two instances where phrases of more than one word are said to be "interpreted" (Mk. 5:41; 15:34), and at least three instances in the NT where a word is "interpreted" into more than one word. (Mt 1:23; Mk. 15:22; Ac. 4:36) However, a word being rendered "translated", in this sense and usage, does not occur in Scripture in the KJV, as far as I know.

But it does properly occur several times in the NKJV, including once in the OT in Ez. 4:7, meaning that the NKJV is the best "translated" English version one can use, no??

:laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Amy.G]

Here is a quiz to see if you really know the Bible on preservation.

Ed, you are way off. :laugh:
Here are the correct answers. (I'm Baptist. I'm always right.)

(1) In what specific location is the Word of God perfectly preserved?

God's mouth and my heart (by the power of the Holy Spirit)

Psa 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.

(2) Who was used by God in the OT to preserve the Word of God? (At least three names.)

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Micah...(that's enough, I'm tired.)

(3) What class of people in the Bible is commanded to preserve the Word of God?

Not sure about "class", but I would say those that belong to God through faith.

(4) Give two passages in the NT where a sentence is translated within the text from an original language.

Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,"* which is translated, "God with us."

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Mar 5:41 Then He took the child by the hand, and said to her, "Talitha, cumi," which is translated, "Little girl, I say to you, arise."


Ok John, now give the real answers!

 

[EdSutton]

Ed, you are way off. :laugh:
Here are the correct answers. (I'm Baptist. I'm always right.)



God's mouth and my heart (by the power of the Holy Spirit)

Psa 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.



Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Micah...(that's enough, I'm tired.)




Not sure about "class", but I would say those that belong to God through faith.



Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,"* which is translated, "God with us."

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Mar 5:41 Then He took the child by the hand, and said to her, "Talitha, cumi," which is translated, "Little girl, I say to you, arise."


Ok John, now give the real answers!

Well, you are mostly right on #4. They are among the instances I cited. And I mentioned Isaiah, among others, so I'll give partial credit on #2.

But as to #1, you are incorrect, for that does not say what you said, as to "perfectly preserved", for it says "hidden".

#3 may also be applicable, but does not answer John's question, I don't think.

Oh, yeah! "Memory 'serves'", not "'sreves"'as I posted before, but I missed my misspelling-

Ed

 

[Amy.G]

Well, you are mostly right on #4. They are among the instances I cited. And I mentioned Isaiah, among others, so I'll give partial credit on #2.

But as to #1, you are incorrect, for that does not say what you said, as to "perfectly preserved", for it says "hidden".

#3 may also be applicable, but does not answer John's question, I don't think.

Oh, yeah! "Memory 'serves'", not "'sreves"'as I posted before, but I missed my misspelling-

Ed

Hey! I told you I'm always right! :laugh:

I look forward to John's answers from his study.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

In speaking with Dr. Dell Johnson, he told me of a book that changed him from a Critical Text position to a Received text position. I can't remember the title right now. I will post it when I get to the office in the morning.

The book is entitled The Identity of the New Testament Text by Wilbur Pickering - 1977

 

[Phillip]

For me, it was hearing great teachers on the radio. All I had been exposed to since I was saved had been the KJV. I had heard of the NIV, but only bad things.

Anyway, I started listening to Moody radio. I noticed that the scriptures they read were a little different than my KJV. They said the same thing, but were much easier to understand. I did some research into it and discovered the many different translations. I started using the NKJV about then.

I had had encounters with some KJVO people before, but since I was using KJV it wasn't an issue. Once I moved away from a pure KJV stance, I came under attack for it by the same people. just for not using "their" book? Once I came here to the BB I found even more of the same venom. I was just as bitter against this stance as they were against mine for a while, but God is gracious and helped me see that that wasn't the way to be.

I still carry and use the NKJV as my main. I also use the NASB, HCSB, Amplified, and the KJV. God's word is God's word, no matter who translated it or the date inside the cover.

Trotter, almost my story completely. This is a very good post--you have done well. Thank you for your insights. :thumbs:

 

[Pastor_Bob]

(1) In what specific location is the Word of God perfectly preserved?

At least the law of God is preserved in the Ark of the Covenant. However, a belief in preservation necessitates a belief that we have God's Word perfectly preserved for us today. Unless it is preserved for you and I today then it is not preserved at all.

Ps 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. (KJV)
"I think there can be no doubt that this promise refers to the Word of God on earth and among men and is not only true from the beginning, but 'every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever.'" Our God-Breathed Book - The Bible John R. Rice - pg. 358.

(2) Who was used by God in the OT to preserve the Word of God? (At least three names.)

Joshua - Joshua 8:32
Isaiah - Isaiah 30:8
Jeremiah - Jeremiah 30:2

(3) What class of people in the Bible is commanded to preserve the Word of God?

I'm not sure what you are looking for here when you say "class" of people. I will say the scribes.

(4) Give two passages in the NT where a sentence is translated within the text from an original language.
Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (KJV)
Mr 5:41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise. (KJV)

 

[readmore]

Trotter, almost my story completely. This is a very good post--you have done well. Thank you for your insights. :thumbs:

Same here--very similar story. Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

NONE ARE CALL IT TREASON by John A. Stormer came out in 1964, it was my first 'Conspiracy Theory' book . I probably read it first in 1968 when I got out of the Air Force and went to college to finish my Teacher's Degree in Mathematics. My maternal Grandfather was into it also. I fell for it line, hook, and sinker. I would still be into it if I hadn't gotten a job I really couldn't do at home so had lots of time on my hands. The Teaching job one can work 16 hours a day if one wishes, so I did. But in Jan 1976 I got a job that had to be done in a special place and not at home. I was into Texe Marrs by then. He had a pretty good Unified Theory of Conspiracy (I now call it the "Grand Mal Conspiracy" ) That theory says Satan (who is so close to Deity that some say he has inspired the NIV just like God inspired the KJV) has all these other sub-plots going. Satan is trying to keep God's earth after Satan's lease expires in /well, I know the date, but obviously I can't tell you privileged information, right Well, any his arguments had a few holes in it like calling white 'scarlet' and calling scarlet 'white' (the Bible really doesn't use 'black' and 'white' as opposites but rather 'scarlet' and 'white') Anyway, the biggest hole appeared in the KJVO arguments - they were non-scriptural and didn't even make sense; when I checked into his sources I found lies and deceptions.

I'd run across SABOTAGE? (Chick Comics, 1969) in the early 1970s. Except for the Bible (incorrectly quoted) the books mentioned were totally unavailable (back before Amazon, you know)where I taught school; . It was at University of Oklahoma where I found in the library certain books cited in the comic book and had time to read them in the late 1970s. A Doctrine of Conspiracy based on an ineptly written comic book? That is NOT good source for Doctrine!

In fact, 99% of the history of KJBO Conspiracy Theory was developed to me as news.

/Ammended to spell 'SABOTAGE?' right./

 

[Pastor_Bob]

The first books I read on the version issue were Which Bible? and True or False? both by David Otis Fuller. I read these books simply as outside reading assignments for college. I was raised in a church that was KJV exclusive so the version issue was really not an issue to me. It was after I learned of the difference in the textual basis of the KJV and the MVs that really began to study the issue for myself. I began to get everything I could find on the text issue - both for and against the Textus Receptus.

I read several books, watched relative videos, asked many questions, and searched the Scriptures. I carefully watched extended family members and friends who attended churches who used MVs. I watched friends who attended KJV only churches. I began to see an obvious paradox. The MVs were marketed claiming to make the Word of God more easily understood. It was written in the today's language for the common man. It would stand to reason that, if man were able to understand more clearly, they would develop a closer walk with God and a greater commitment to Him.

I found the opposite to be true. Mainstream Christianity has grown increasingly more carnal and worldly. Ask any missionary who comes home from the field. Although the Word of God is more readily available and understood, it has not accomplished the task of drawing men closer to God.

I have family members who want to debate me on the version issue who have children and even grandchildren who look and act just like the world. They have no desire for the things of God. These are my own family. I also see this pattern repeated time and again in the conferences and conventions that I am able to attend. Almost without exception, I can walk right up to the groups who stand for the KJV.

It is by personal observation that I have concluded that the KJV is the preserved Word of God. I have seen nothing that allows me to give the same endorsement to the MVs.

 

[sag38]

No book did it for me. The uninvited personal attacks that I have received and my church has received because we were not KJV only sealed the deal for me.

 

[Amy.G]

The first books I read on the version issue were Which Bible? and True or False? both by David Otis Fuller. I read these books simply as outside reading assignments for college. I was raised in a church that was KJV exclusive so the version issue was really not an issue to me. It was after I learned of the difference in the textual basis of the KJV and the MVs that really began to study the issue for myself. I began to get everything I could find on the text issue - both for and against the Textus Receptus.

I read several books, watched relative videos, asked many questions, and searched the Scriptures. I carefully watched extended family members and friends who attended churches who used MVs. I watched friends who attended KJV only churches. I began to see an obvious paradox. The MVs were marketed claiming to make the Word of God more easily understood. It was written in the today's language for the common man. It would stand to reason that, if man were able to understand more clearly, they would develop a closer walk with God and a greater commitment to Him.

I found the opposite to be true. Mainstream Christianity has grown increasingly more carnal and worldly. Ask any missionary who comes home from the field. Although the Word of God is more readily available and understood, it has not accomplished the task of drawing men closer to God.

I have family members who want to debate me on the version issue who have children and even grandchildren who look and act just like the world. They have no desire for the things of God. These are my own family. I also see this pattern repeated time and again in the conferences and conventions that I am able to attend. Almost without exception, I can walk right up to the groups who stand for the KJV.

It is by personal observation that I have concluded that the KJV is the preserved Word of God. I have seen nothing that allows me to give the same endorsement to the MVs.

How do you feel about the NKJV since it is translated from the same manuscripts as the KJV?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

How do you feel about the NKJV since it is translated from the same manuscripts as the KJV?

I recommend the NKJV if someone is adamantly opposed to reading the KJV. The emergence of the MVs have convinced many people that they can no longer understand the KJV. Of course, that is fodder for another thread.

 

[John of Japan]

Here is a quiz to see if you really know the Bible on preservation.
(1) In what specific location is the Word of God perfectly preserved?
(2) Who was used by God in the OT to preserve the Word of God? (At least three names.)
(3) What class of people in the Bible is commanded to preserve the Word of God?
(4) Give two passages in the NT where a sentence is translated within the text from an original language.

Very good, everyone! Good thinking--but I should have expected no less from each of you who answered. Now here are my answers.

(1) In Heaven (Ps. 119:89) in the mind of God (Acts 15:18). God knows everything perfectly.
(2) I'll have to do a separate post from my outline listing these. Please note the difference between inspiration and preservation. Preservation involves what we do with the written Word of God we already have.
(3) The priests (Deut. 17:18; Ezek. 44:8 & 15; Mal. 2:7)
(4) "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" and "Talitha kumi." Kudos to Amy, Pastor Bob and EdSutton! :thumbs: But "Immanuel" is only one word and I said sentences. There are many cases in the NT where a single word is translated. In the OT we have the handwriting on the wall, but Daniel interpreted it rather than strictly translating it.

 

[John of Japan]

Bible Examples of Human Preservation of the Scriptures

1. After Moses destroyed the Decalogue (Exod. 32:19), God was able to replace every word through him (Exod. ch. 34).

2. Remember that when the only earthly copy of a portion of God's Word was destroyed by evil king Jehoiakim (Jer. 36:23), God was able to give every word back to Jeremiah perfectly (Jer. 36:27-32).

3. God commanded the Jews to bind God's law on their hands and on their foreheads (Ex. 13:9, Deut. 6:8 & 11:8, Prov. 3:3, 6:2, 7:3).

4. Each king of Israel was required to write out his own copy of the Bible. "And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites" (Deut. 17:18). Not only was he to have his own copy of the law, he was to live and rule by it (v. 19).

5. Moses cared enough about the Decalogue to make an box of shittim wood in which to preserve it (Deut. 10:3-5).

6. The ark of God was called variously "the ark of the testimony" (Josh. 4:16) and "the ark of the covenant" (Josh. 4:18), obviously referring to the fact that God's Word was to be kept inside it (Deut. 31:26).

7. God commanded the Jews to build an altar and write the law on the stones of it when they crossed the river into the Promised Land. (Deut. 27:1-8) Joshua obeyed God's command and did so (Josh. 8:30-35).

8. The Apostle Paul specifically asked Timothy to bring his personal copy of some of the Old Testament Scriptures. (2 Tim. 4:13)

 

[John of Japan]

Amen, John! Not as easy as it sounds; perhaps impossible to achieve completely. This is what I'm trying to do currently. I am praying for the Holy Spirit's guidance. There is much material to read and many complex issues to be investigated. Perhaps I am not as brilliant as you fellows.

Go for it, friend. You will be tremendously blessed as I was!

 

[John of Japan]

John,

You have the makings of a good book there. I realize that it is your private thoughts but many could benefit from your research, I believe.

Thanks, Mexdeaf. Someday I'll turn it into a book. The thing is, I can't be too vocal publically right now no matter what my position. You being a missionary will understand exactly what I mean! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[John of Japan]

At least the law of God is preserved in the Ark of the Covenant. However, a belief in preservation necessitates a belief that we have God's Word perfectly preserved for us today. Unless it is preserved for you and I today then it is not preserved at all.

The key phrase here Pastor_Bob is "perfectly preserved." We know that it is perfectly preserved in the mind of God. But the grand task is to determine according to Scripture if God has allowed perfect preservation of the Word on earth, and if He has, to what extent? Is it verbal-plenary in the same sense inspiration is? Or is it perfect preservation of the message while preventing error (in the sense of factual mistakes, not of different readings) from entering the manuscripts?

 

[Justlittleoldme]

John of Japan,
I too appreciated your posts.
For me, my opinion was sealed not in the writings of others but in reading the word of God. I grew up reading the NIV. My parents were in the ministry when I was young and I was a leader in my youth group as a young person. I read my Bible, I taught Jr. Church BUT I was lost. I got saved through reading a KJV Bible. I had been told my whole life that it was too hard to understand but from the day I started reading it and got saved, God's word has never been clearer to me!
I could give you reasons more along the line of what I have read in other posts and I could give you books I've read on the subject but they just helped to back up what I already felt in my heart.
To me, the KJV is God's preserved word for English speaking people.

 

[TCGreek]

I recommend the NKJV if someone is adamantly opposed to reading the KJV. The emergence of the MVs have convinced many people that they can no longer understand the KJV. Of course, that is fodder for another thread.

1. While I do not use the KJV out of preference, I have a pastor friend who still uses it because of its elegance and flow.

2. I must admit that there's a beauty to the Elizabethan language as reflected in the KJV.