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What Sense is Salvation Universal?
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Dan V. said:
It would have been better to click on the link and see the Ropmans 10 argument detailed where we see Paul himself takes these very verses and points them to the revelation we have in nature.
But since you may prefer the link to be posted-again rather than clicking on the link...
Romans 10
16 However, they did not all heed the GOOD NEWS[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;“their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”
The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows
Psalms 19
1 the heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God
(as we already saw in Romans 1) - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the
condition –
And using that Ps 19 context – Paul then continues…
Quote:
Romans 10
vs 17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
and this - is in perfect agreement with the opening context of the book of Romans - chapter 1.
Quote:
Romans 1:
Quote:
18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Clearly - they are without excuse because God did manifest himself as described in the text and still they refused the God that "draws all men unto him".
Quote:
21for even thoughthey knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Quote:
22professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
So although Paul points to the witness of God's creation in Ps 19 as proving that
Israel is "without excuse" and did have the opportunity to "believe" - he also points to the motive of jealousy as God's witness to non-Hebrew people results in salvation
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
ReformedBaptist said:
And now for actual scripture instead --
Romans 10
16 However, they did not all heed the GOOD NEWS[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;“their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”
The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows
Psalms 19
1 the heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God
(as we already saw in Romans 1) - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the
condition –
And using that Ps 19 context – Paul then continues…
Quote:
Romans 10
vs 17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
and this - is in perfect agreement with the opening context of the book of Romans - chapter 1.
Quote:
Romans 1:
Quote:
18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Clearly - they are without excuse because God did manifest himself as described in the text and still they refused the God that "draws all men unto him".
Quote:
21for even thoughthey knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Quote:
22professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
So although Paul points to the witness of God's creation in Ps 19 as proving that
Israel is "without excuse" and did have the opportunity to "believe" - he also points to the motive of jealousy as God's witness to non-Hebrew people results in salvation
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Romans 1:
Quote:
18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Quote:
18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
BobRyan said:
The 'speech' from the creation is:
1) God is all powerful
2) God is all wise
3) God is holy.
This is sufficient to damn men, not save them. God communicates the gospel with real words, not created things. If you disagree, show me one instance in scripture where a man came to faith in the Messiah by looking at a volcano. Or bacteria.
The following sums it up very well:
Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing: which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
Again, God uses real words for the gospel. Not created things. Otherwise don't go to church to hear the word preached. Go look at a waterfall instead, if both are sufficient.
Sincerely,
Dan V.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: When one sins he is without excuse, fro sin is te transgression of the law. With knowledge of what is requireded, formulated by ones knowledge in some sense of what God commands as witnessed by conscience, he is without excuse for the sin. How do you extrapolate that to being presented with the gospel? When conscience convicts one for sin is that paramount to having the gospel preached to them? What doe Scripture say? Does it ever tell you that the salvation message comes by the law? No, it states that by the law is knowledge of sin. The law condemns. It does not grant to man the gospel.
You have never in the dozens of posts on this subject ever presented one solitary verse that supports the idea that everyman has received the gospel. The verses you consistently point to show that God has granted to all men some idea of right and wrong and even of a Creator, but that in no wise constitutes having the gospel preached or hearing the gospel message. Scripture or reason does not in any way suggest that it does as you consistently state and affirm.
Do something positive in this debate. Show us how the knowledge of sin constitutes hearing the message of salvation. Tell us when you heard the gospel message and inform us as to how you received it. Show us that the heathen that have ever had Scripture or a missionary come to them have had the opportunity afforded you or that they have already heard the good news before missionaries told them of it. Show us how anyone that has lived subsequent to Abraham, could be saved outside of the covenant God made with him. Show us where the same privilege was offered of salvation to the Gentile before the Jews rejected the offer and were divorced by God. Tell us why Jesus said that His mission at the start was NOT to the Gentiles, and explain to us why they were cut off from the temple upon pain of death in the OT. Tell us how, in the OT, how one could be right from God without service to the temple and its sacrifices. Explain why Scripture tells us they were ‘alienated from and afar off from’ the promise of the covenant until the NT covenant was well under way, subsequent to the rejection of the Messiah by the Jews?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The argument in Romans 1 is "no only" that we are guilty when we sin it is ALSO that "the INVISIBLE ATTRIBUTES of GOD are clearly seen in the things that have been MADE".
The argument in Romans 10 IS that the Gospel ITSELF is conveyed through nature SO THAT the person in Romans 2:13-16 with NO Bible at all is regarded by God as saved when HE experiences the New Creation work of the Holy Spirit writing the Law of God on his heart.
Rom 10
16 However, they did not all heed the good news[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 [b]So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;[/b]
"THEIR [b]VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."
The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows
Psalms 19
1 the heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
in Christ,
Bob
The argument in Romans 10 IS that the Gospel ITSELF is conveyed through nature SO THAT the person in Romans 2:13-16 with NO Bible at all is regarded by God as saved when HE experiences the New Creation work of the Holy Spirit writing the Law of God on his heart.
Rom 10
16 However, they did not all heed the good news[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 [b]So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;[/b]
"THEIR [b]VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."
The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows
Psalms 19
1 the heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Dan V. said:
Christ said that the message is also grace mercy and love "He pours out the rain on the just and the unjust".
In what he has made we see the Love of God for us in providing for our needs - our "daily bread".
the more we look into space around us the more we see the perfect engineering of the blue-planet we live on.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: You have to be kidding. Where does scripture state or imply that God regards any apart from coming to a saving knowledge of Christ, as “saved?” One can clearly have the law of God written on their heart, but how does that constitute God viewing them as saved?
Scripture is clear. All, that includes the heathen, have sinned and came short of the glory of God. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins, and without accepting Christ as ones personal Savior, there is no one right with God. "I am the way, the truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me."
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Romans 2 the person who is saved is distinguished from the one who is NOT saved by the fact of the work of the Holy Spirit -- working on the heart.
Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So [b]if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?[/b]
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For [b]he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter[/b]; and his praise is not from men, but from God. [/b]
Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So [b]if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?[/b]
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For [b]he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter[/b]; and his praise is not from men, but from God. [/b]
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I see you digging yet a deeper hole for your argument. Your argument seems to imply that when Scripture speaks of God’s Spirit working upon the heart, that such indicates to the reader that they are saved. Is this not a correct deduction from what you have just stated to be the case? Can God’ Spirit be seen to be working on the heart of a non believer? If so, how can you be certain of your position?