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What would be differences between Reformed and Calvinist Baptists?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
KenH
Well-Known Member
I am a Sovereign Grace Baptist, mentioned in a page on Wikipedia entitled, "Reformed Baptists". You might find that page to be beneficial.
Here is part of what it says about Sovereign Grace Baptists. The mention of Henry Mahan is interesting to me as that is who the pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana, where I am a member, heard the gospel of Christ from.
"Groups calling themselves "Sovereign Grace Baptists" have been particularly influenced by the writings of John Gill in the 18th century. Among American Baptists who have revived such Calvinist ideas were Rolfe P. Barnard and Henry T. Mahan, who organized the first Sovereign Grace Bible Conference in Ashland, Kentucky, in 1954, though groups designated as Sovereign Grace are not necessarily connected to them."
Here is part of what it says about Sovereign Grace Baptists. The mention of Henry Mahan is interesting to me as that is who the pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana, where I am a member, heard the gospel of Christ from.
"Groups calling themselves "Sovereign Grace Baptists" have been particularly influenced by the writings of John Gill in the 18th century. Among American Baptists who have revived such Calvinist ideas were Rolfe P. Barnard and Henry T. Mahan, who organized the first Sovereign Grace Bible Conference in Ashland, Kentucky, in 1954, though groups designated as Sovereign Grace are not necessarily connected to them."
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Here in the UK, some Baptist churches believing the doctrines of grace call themselves "Reformed Baptists," other call themselves "Grace Baptists."
I did not see any discussion of which doctrines differ between Reformed Baptists and Reformed Churches.
Since the Reformed Churches also believe in exactly the same doctrines, that God chose who He will save before creation and there is nothing we can do to alter that outcome for ourselves or our loved ones, any distinction would be superficial.
From the Internet:
Reformed Baptists are a group of Baptists who follow the Calvinist belief of salvation and adhere to the Bible's teachings. They are also known as Calvinistic Baptists or Particular Baptists.
Beliefs
They believe in the Five Solas: Scripture Alone, Christ Alone, Grace Alone, Faith Alone, and the Glory of God Alone.
They believe in the Reformed Faith, which includes sola fide (justification by faith alone) and sola gratia (salvation by God's grace alone).
They believe that true Christian faith is a lived experience, not just an intellectual belief.
They believe that faith should manifest itself in everything as people seek to live godly lives.
Reformed Baptists are a group of Baptists who follow the Calvinist belief of salvation and adhere to the Bible's teachings. They are also known as Calvinistic Baptists or Particular Baptists.
Beliefs
They believe in the Five Solas: Scripture Alone, Christ Alone, Grace Alone, Faith Alone, and the Glory of God Alone.
They believe in the Reformed Faith, which includes sola fide (justification by faith alone) and sola gratia (salvation by God's grace alone).
They believe that true Christian faith is a lived experience, not just an intellectual belief.
They believe that faith should manifest itself in everything as people seek to live godly lives.
Since the Reformed Churches also believe in exactly the same doctrines, that God chose who He will save before creation and there is nothing we can do to alter that outcome for ourselves or our loved ones, any distinction would be superficial.
Now where we can discuss the merits of significant difference is between General Baptists and Calvinists Baptists.
General Baptists believe God desires all people to be saved, and that He has not predestined from before creation, who will be saved. General Baptists believe Christ died as a ransom for all, such that He became the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2. General Baptists believe the fields are white for harvest and than they all have the opportunity to be reconciled through their faith, if credited by God as righteousness.
General Baptists believe God desires all people to be saved, and that He has not predestined from before creation, who will be saved. General Baptists believe Christ died as a ransom for all, such that He became the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2. General Baptists believe the fields are white for harvest and than they all have the opportunity to be reconciled through their faith, if credited by God as righteousness.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I think you're right. There is no real difference. A lot of Calvinists do challenge whether a Baptist can really be authentically reformed though. And to me, that is ridiculous if for no other reason than how can you account for Primitive Baptists and also the London Baptist Confession of 1689 (and the other versions from other years).
In practice, I find that Reformed Baptists are seriously into evangelism and have varying degrees of the extent of the atonement. They also believe in a true and real offer of salvation to everyone who hears the gospel. There are plenty of Calvinistic writings, not just Baptist, that teach that even if everything is ordained the means are also ordained. In practice, your actions in spreading the gospel are truly voluntary and fit in so to speak with God's sovereignty, thus there is no conflict. Reformed Baptists also believe in OSAS, unlike general Baptists but believe that this includes some level of actual continuation of following Christ.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Dave when I read your post it seem to contradict itself. You say everything is ordained but then say that spreading the gospel are truly voluntary, how does that work?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I don't know that everything really is ordained. I was just explaining how Reformed Baptists view it, as I was in such a church and part of it. But what I mean is simply what almost all Calvinistic theologians assert, and that is that free will actions of people are compatible with God working out his sovereign plan.
When it comes to the question of Reformed or Calvinistic Baptist churches, the church we are in now is attempting to be totally open to Calvinist and non-Calvinist viewpoints. I sincerely hope it works but we will see. I tend to be of similar opinion to Martin Lloyd-Jones who said in his day that Calvinism, to be healthy, needed some influence of Methodism. I think some influence of Calvinism has been good for Baptist churches but more so in areas of Christian living and striving for holiness than soteriology. But that's just my opinion.
As to how this works in theology, you have to understand that in Calvinistic theology something like the Fall can be ordained by God, and be necessary that it happen, and yet Adam and Eve's free will was not violated. The problem is that not only do non-Calvinists not accept this explanation, but many Calvinists don't either. They simply insist God causes everything and demand that you not reply against God.
There are differences between Reformed and Calvinistic Baptists.
The term "Reformed Baptists" is of very recent vintage. It seems only to date from the 1960s when Welshman Geoff Thomas and some American Baptists who were studying at the Westminster Seminary, were told by some fellow-students that they were not Reformed because they were not paedo-baptists. On the contrary, they replied, we are Reformed Baptists. We believe in all the Reformed doctrines, but we have completed the Reformation by ditching the last remnant of Romanism - paedo-baptism.
So Reformed Baptists, of whom I am one, follow the 1689 Confession which is very similar to the Westminster Confession, save for Presbyterianism and baptism. That includes Covenant Theology and the Regulative Principle of Worship. Someone like John MacArthur is a Calvinistic Baptist, but not Reformed because he is Dispensational.
The term "Reformed Baptists" is of very recent vintage. It seems only to date from the 1960s when Welshman Geoff Thomas and some American Baptists who were studying at the Westminster Seminary, were told by some fellow-students that they were not Reformed because they were not paedo-baptists. On the contrary, they replied, we are Reformed Baptists. We believe in all the Reformed doctrines, but we have completed the Reformation by ditching the last remnant of Romanism - paedo-baptism.
So Reformed Baptists, of whom I am one, follow the 1689 Confession which is very similar to the Westminster Confession, save for Presbyterianism and baptism. That includes Covenant Theology and the Regulative Principle of Worship. Someone like John MacArthur is a Calvinistic Baptist, but not Reformed because he is Dispensational.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
This is a statement on which we both agree free will actions of people are compatible with God working out his sovereign plan.
God from the beginning has planned that for people to be saved they must believe in Him. From what I have read in scripture I just do not see where He has pick out a select few and in so doing has condemned the rest.
The cross was necessary but man via his free will carried it out and all this happened as part of God's overall plan.
For me where calvinism falls down is when they require determinism/ordination and then cry fowl when you point out that view makes God responsible for the sin that He determined.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
That as an explanation I agree with and I also think the same logic can occur even with something like the Fall of man, especially in light of the knowledge that God would have and viewing it as much as possible from his point of view.
I don't think Calvinism requires that God determine sin but I admit some Calvinists do take that position. But I go further than that. When a group of people together, hear the gospel, I do not think that it is correct to say that God sovereignly chooses to give sufficient grace to one person sitting there and then refuses to give sufficient grace to the person sitting next to them, thus making God the sole reason the second person doesn't get saved. Too many scriptures seem to indicate that the refusal of many to believe the gospel is a matter of their willful resistance to what they know they should do. So while I tend to think that the Holy Spirit was necessary or else neither person would be saved - yet, the obstinate refusal of the one will be the true and final reason that person is lost - not that God sovereignly rejected them.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
It seems the most vocal ones do hold to the determinism view. How they can deal with God being the author of sin I do not know but they have to if the insist on determinism.
Yes the Holy Spirit does convict people of their sin and need for a savior but then free will comes in as to whether one will trust or reject the message.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
None of the Calvinistic or Reformed Baptists I know believe God to be the author of sin.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Yes I know that none of them will say that but the determinism / ordination view requires that outcome.
You want God to determine all things but for some reason He does not determine sin. Is sin not part of all things, can man do other than what God has determined for him to do.
The fact you continue to say man has no free will is the trip wire for your view.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I agree. And I was surprised that the Reformed Baptists are just as interested in the lost being saved as anyone else. Where a dose of Calvinism was helpful though is in that where my old Baptist church emphasized "soul winning" techniques and superficial "conversions" the Reformed are interested in sharing the gospel by word and by the way we live and then letting the Holy Spirit do his work of actually saving people. I think the Reformed Baptists have the right mix and I have friends still in fundamentalist churches where I see the influence has helped them also in that due to the Calvinistic resurgence there is more emphasis on relying on the Spirit to convert someone and more of an emphasis on discipleship than just going after the next convert. The influence has been good overall.
would that group be similar then to Particular Baptists?
Think main difference I have found so far is that Calvinistic Baptist affirm 5 doctrines of Grace, while Reformed Baptists also affirm Confessions of faith and Covenant theology on the whole
You seem unable to understand the ways of God. This is not too surprising in the light of Romans 11:33-36; it is more surprising that you think you do. Just read the first sentence of Genesis 18:14 until you understand that.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
More like the free will we have will not result in true pursuit of God without the working of the Holy Spirit. Where I think there is a true area of dispute is that if you say we have enough awareness and responsibility on our own to be truly guilty then doesn't that mean also that at least we must have the ability to realize our problem? And if that goes too far in giving man ability on his own, then the question still remains as to whether there might be enough grace given to everyone when they hear the gospel such that their refusal becomes their refusal, not a question of God not choosing to save them.
Of course the answer to the above is that our "inability" is of a moral nature, which means that it is nothing more than us following our own free will. In that case, it is our fault no matter how depraved it is. (If you don't accept that then you don't truly believe in free will and are only willing to accept the concept of free will if it makes us look good.) And the answer to the above point about our awareness and responsibility is answered by saying that it's exactly the making us aware of our problem that is the first work of the Holy Spirit. So we go round and round forever. The fact is our will is so interwoven with the working of the Spirit in our salvation that it is probably perfectly natural to go back and forth in your mind as to your perception of you working according to your will and God working sovereignly on your will. After all, some of the most famous Calvinists say that when you come to Christ you are indeed coming by a conscious act of your will, a renewed and enlightened will.