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What would be your response to this quote by Desmond TuTu?
- Thread starter annsni
- Start date
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
I agree that we may be surprised who we see in heaven, as well as who we don't see. But none of them will get there without faith towards Christ's death and resurrection.
I would say perfection is quite a high standard.
Agreed Tom. I posted a response saying that anyone who reads the Bible will see just how high God's standards are - high enough that it took God himself to die for us so that we even have a chance at eternal life with Him. I'd say that's not a "low standard". I find that idea of God having low standards offensive.
See, I believe if God can have the rocks cry out in praise to Him, that He can also see a fetal faith - one that we cannot comprehend at all but one between the infant/unborn/mentally incapacitated and God that God accepts. I don't claim to understand it and the Bible doesn't tell us how it all happens but I do believe that God has set up a way to Him that all are capable of following. Whether they do or not is a different story but I don't believe that any are in heaven without having had faith.
Just because God can do something, it doesn't mean He does or will. We can only go by with the Bible tells us and that is sola fide, the "fide" being the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen and coming by hearing (understanding) and that by the Word of God. Based on what He has given us in His Word, infants and the unborn would not qualify.
Can something be good without being just?If they don't qualify, then God is good. I don't claim to understand but I trust Him.
Exactly, and punishing someone for simply being conceived is neither just nor good. Would it be justice if the authorities came to your home and told you they were taking your kids and putting them on death row for the mere reason of being born into your family? Even a wicked person would be able to see the injustice in this.Being good means being just.
So what you are saying is that there are people in this world for whom Jesus didn't have to die for - they get to heaven because of their own righteousness?
First you didn't address the question
Is that justice in any system?Never said anything even remotely like this either. Is the atonement the sole reason for Christ's death, or did it serve other purposes? (redemption, propitiation, etc.)
preacher4truth
Active Member
That's the whole problem here, one attemtpting to align eternal truths with mans own fallible logic and reason. If it doesn't, then it is weighed in saids balance and cast out as error.
I see the same thing you see in saids statements Ann.
- Peace
preacher4truth
Active Member
Concerning the OP.
I am not sure about what he says here.
When God saves people, He makes it evident to others, changing their nature. We could though be surprised that "so and so" who was "so bad" got to heaven perhaps only due to the fact one never witnessed their testimony and changed life while here on earth personally due to circumstances preventing one from seeing it firsthand.
As far as God lowering His standards, I "get" what he is saying (sort of), but disagree. God's standard is righteousness. That He chooses those vessels thought most unworthy by others, is His call and His plan, and He declares these rigtheous due to His Sons work alone.
My comments would be censored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by annsni
“We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot for sinners. His standards are quite low.”
― Desmond Tutu
GE:
That's why Tutu is so popular in South Africa and maybe worldwide if what we are told were true.
Originally Posted by annsni
“We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot for sinners. His standards are quite low.”
― Desmond Tutu
GE:
That's why Tutu is so popular in South Africa and maybe worldwide if what we are told were true.
DiamondLady
New Member
We have two men in our church, both are handicapped. Michael, who will be 43 next week is severely handicapped and has the mental capacity of about a four year old, speaks little and what he does is garbled and takes great concentration to understand him. However, one thing it takes no words to understand is his love for God. He loves singing hymns, won't miss church, can take the offering, and with help, can pray. There's no doubt as to his faith in God, and while it may not be able to be expressed as we do ours, I believe with all my heart Michael and God have a relationship.
Then there's Stevie. Stevie died at a few weeks old and they rescuitated him, but he was without oxygen for quite a while and is profoundly handicapped. He's 46, but looks about the size of a six year old. But he knows when he's in church. He gurgles and makes sounds when we're singing songs he likes. He will make noises when the preacher is preaching and saying something he agrees with. He knows when we speak to him. He will laugh and smile when we talk to him about Jesus. Stevie knows Jesus and Jesus knows Stevie.
Do these men have the same kind of saving faith you and I do? I think so! Can they express it as we do? No, they don't have the capacity to do so. But if you were around them five minutes you'd know they know the Lord. I don't understand how God works sometimes, but He does, and that's really all that matters.
DiamondLady
New Member
This reminds me of the joke about the lawyer who went to heaven. He got to the gates and stood in shock at who was there. Those already in heaven were standing with their mouths gaping open. The lawyer said to St. Peter, "Why are they all looking at me like that?" St. Peter said, "They're shocked to see you here!" ....or something along those lines.
I think Mr. Tutu's quote is sort of right. I don't know that I would say that God's standards are "low", but rather that the way to Heaven is simple...belief in Christ and what He did on the cross. Nothing more.
I do agree with the first part, however....and I know many who will be shocked at finding folks they didn't think it possible for them to be there. My first husband's mother was sure only Southern Baptists could go to heaven. I think she found out differently!
DL, I agree with you (are you shocked :laugh: )
We simply have to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (yes, repentance is part of it)
Think of it this way, suppose Mr. Tutu said “We may be surprised at the people we find in th NFL. The Commissioner has a soft spot for football. His standards are quite low.”
As long as you can hold a football, you will be on an NFL team.
My goodness that is ridiculous - getting into the NFL is extremely hard. Approximately only one high school football player makes it to the NFL.
Potentially, 100% of all humans have the possibility of being Heaven bound.
(Yes, I am aware of "For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction" )
Bottom line is that there is no works required to be saved. (unlike the NFL! :1_grouphug
But I do realize that Mr. Tutus think and our thinking might be a bit different.