What's at Stake?

[preacher4truth]

Two men are saved after hearing the Gospel. Both come forward to publically announce they have been saved, and are then baptized. Both of these two men belong to two separate churches. They both claim Christ alone has saved them. They have no clue about "theology" only that God reached into their lives, and they have been changed. (This is just what happened, I am not implying anything other than this is how they both handled it, publically &c.)

As time goes by they lay claim to an theology as follows:

One embraces classic Arminianism.

The other embraces Calvinism.


So what is at stake? What's the problem with either one, if any at all?


Should we pick their brains and bring light on errors of their understanding, then label them as lost because they don't see things our/your way, according to your theological stance?

What's at stake with these two different believers? Are either one of these two now not born again because of which direction their individual theologies grew?


- Blessings

 

[Amy.G]

What's at stake with these two different believers?


- Blessings

Their pride?

Certainly not their salvation.

 

[preacher4truth]

Their pride?

Certainly not their salvation.

That will be the best answer on this thread.

:thumbsup:

 

[annsni]

That will be the best answer on this thread.

:thumbsup:

Wholly agree.

 

[ashleysdad]

Their pride?

Certainly not their salvation.

This is completely true and well stated. Now for the obvious follow up question. If it is true (which it is) that their salvation is not in doubt why are the "debates" between C/A some of the most venom filled on this board? We all agree that salvation is the result of someone recognizing that they are a sinner standing guilty and in need of forgiveness before God and that salvation is only found in Jesus and His death and resurrection. So why does there seem to be so much hostility from both sides in these "debates"

 

[Amy.G]

This is completely true and well stated. Now for the obvious follow up question. If it is true (which it is) that their salvation is not in doubt why are the "debates" between C/A some of the most venom filled on this board? We all agree that salvation is the result of someone recognizing that they are a sinner standing guilty and in need of forgiveness before God and that salvation is only found in Jesus and His death and resurrection. So why does there seem to be so much hostility from both sides in these "debates"

Because we are humans still living in sinful flesh. Truth be told, we all want to be right. There's a bit of pride in all of us. Also, posting on an internet forum gives us a hiding place, so to speak, so that we are much "braver" and bolder in our responses than we would be face to face.

Sadly, we forget that we are brothers and sisters in Christ and we are not each others enemies. When we let ourselves get all caught up in these fights, the real enemy is having a jolly old time.

 

[glfredrick]

That will be the best answer on this thread.

:thumbsup:

Amen... People on the board now identify me with Calvinism, even though I disavow that brand (and also Arminianism) but use the terms only because they are expedient. Imagine the shock of discovering that I was the pastor of a hyper-Arminain church for 5 years in a denomination that was founded on Arminian principles. Not only that, but I was also their associational moderator for 3 years, helped them plant a new church, had articles published in their journal, and generally thought them to be a good bunch of folks who loved Jesus.

All is not always what it seems, and grace toward each other is a good thing...

 

[Dr. Bob]

No matter the experience or the "camp" in which they find themselves, they must find what is consistent with Truth of the Word of God.

This search for truth/consistency of revelation will cause them to see how their position (toward calvinism/toward arminianism) fits into the entire Word of God.

A person cannot be "double minded". ALL of the Word will line up with Truth and the position this person embraces had better be consistent with that Truth.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is completely true and well stated. Now for the obvious follow up question. If it is true (which it is) that their salvation is not in doubt why are the "debates" between C/A some of the most venom filled on this board? We all agree that salvation is the result of someone recognizing that they are a sinner standing guilty and in need of forgiveness before God and that salvation is only found in Jesus and His death and resurrection. So why does there seem to be so much hostility from both sides in these "debates"

For the same answer Amy gave: Pure, selfish pride.

You have guys on here that drag others into debate, then tag and label them with "I can smell you out, you're just religious, you're a pelagian (implicating one as lost), you're a Mormon..." and on and on and on. Who cares what they say, Jesus Christ saved us, not anyone else, not one person on here, and certainly by no ones theological ideologies. Christ alone has saved and always has.

It reminds me of the definition of diablos this sniffing people out and slandering and accusing.

It's not enough that some person has trusted in the finished work of Christ. We have to dissect their theology. It's "Do you believe this that and the other?" Like I said in the past, their theology is their god. How they dot every i and cross every t theologically is called into question, and if you don't do it their way, well watch out.

Jseus didn't say we would be judged by our theology, or intellect, but by our fruit. And some of the fruit on here smells kind of rotten.

We have gotten away from the truth and the beauty of the pure Gospel. Anything else added to it is plain heretical.

My whole intent of this thread was summed up beautifully by Amy. The only thing that matters is that Christ saved us. All the other comparing of self to others is the task of fools.

- Blessings

 

[quantumfaith]

Amen... People on the board now identify me with Calvinism, even though I disavow that brand (and also Arminianism) but use the terms only because they are expedient. Imagine the shock of discovering that I was the pastor of a hyper-Arminain church for 5 years in a denomination that was founded on Arminian principles. Not only that, but I was also their associational moderator for 3 years, helped them plant a new church, had articles published in their journal, and generally thought them to be a good bunch of folks who loved Jesus.

All is not always what it seems, and grace toward each other is a good thing...

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Amy.G]

Preach, thanks for starting this thread. The Lord has used you to shine a light on the trouble we as Christians have been causing one another on the BB. I am as guilty of this as anybody and I apologize to all my friends on this board.

I am going to change my direction and instead of making the devil happy by fussing and fighting, I want to learn from others. There are many difficult scriptures that we could help each other with instead of questioning one another's salvation, slinging insults and being anything but unified as the Lord has commanded us.

Of course I am prone to failure, so be patient with me. :tongue3:

:1_grouphug:

 

[quantumfaith]

Preach, thanks for starting this thread. The Lord has used you to shine a light on the trouble we as Christians have been causing one another on the BB. I am as guilty of this as anybody and I apologize to all my friends on this board.

I am going to change my direction and instead of making the devil happy by fussing and fighting, I want to learn from others. There are many difficult scriptures that we could help each other with instead of questioning one another's salvation, slinging insults and being anything but unified as the Lord has commanded us.

Of course I am prone to failure, so be patient with me. :tongue3:


:thumbsup::thumbsup::1_grouphug:

 

[preacher4truth]

Preach, thanks for starting this thread. The Lord has used you to shine a light on the trouble we as Christians have been causing one another on the BB. I am as guilty of this as anybody and I apologize to all my friends on this board.

I am going to change my direction and instead of making the devil happy by fussing and fighting, I want to learn from others. There are many difficult scriptures that we could help each other with instead of questioning one another's salvation, slinging insults and being anything but unified as the Lord has commanded us.

Of course I am prone to failure, so be patient with me. :tongue3:

:1_grouphug:

Thanks for the kind words.

Well, we have the grow in knowledge part down. If we could get the grow in grace part down, the humility, leading like Jesus would come into our walk, and we wouldn't be so concerned with ourselves.

Patience? Uh, Curmodeonette, God is using you to test mine...lol!

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[canadyjd]

Two men are saved after hearing the Gospel. Both come forward to publically announce they have been saved, and are then baptized. Both of these two men belong to two separate churches. They both claim Christ alone has saved them. They have no clue about "theology" only that God reached into their lives, and they have been changed.... As time goes by they lay claim to an theology as follows: One embraces classic Arminianism.The other embraces Calvinism. So what is at stake? What's the problem with either one, if any at all? Should we pick their brains and bring light on errors of their understanding, then label them as lost because they don't see things our/your way, according to your theological stance?

First, as Christians we should bring to light errors of their (other Christians) understanding. That is scriptural. (Acts 18:24-38, 19:1-7, Gal. 2:11-14)

Second, we should do so with a spirit of love and patience. We shouldn't be declaring people to be unsaved or saved, imho. We can say their profession of faith and/or the fruit of their lives is consistent with a profession of faith in Christ (or not), but we can't look into another person's heart and see indwelling Holy Spirit or not. We can say that what they believe is consistent with God's Word or not.

What's at stake? The truth of God's Word? Yes, I think so. The right understanding of God's revelation of Himself to His creation. Yes, I think so.

We live in a world where many people do not want to contend for the truth of God's revelation (I'm not accusing you or anyone else here of being such a person). They want to downgrade (not my term) scripture as if the details contained therein are not important.

That said, those two people in your opening OP ought to be able to discuss their beliefs with one another and rationally explain why they believe what they do, without getting angry or being insulting.

However, if their beliefs are contrary to the clear teaching of the Word of God, they ought to change their opinions in favor of God's Word.

peace to youraying:

 

[Old Union Brother]

Preach, thanks for starting this thread. The Lord has used you to shine a light on the trouble we as Christians have been causing one another on the BB. I am as guilty of this as anybody and I apologize to all my friends on this board.

I am going to change my direction and instead of making the devil happy by fussing and fighting, I want to learn from others. There are many difficult scriptures that we could help each other with instead of questioning one another's salvation, slinging insults and being anything but unified as the Lord has commanded us.

Of course I am prone to failure, so be patient with me. :tongue3:

:1_grouphug:

:applause::applause:
Your humbleness should inspire our friends on the board.

 

[glfredrick]

No matter the experience or the "camp" in which they find themselves, they must find what is consistent with Truth of the Word of God.

This search for truth/consistency of revelation will cause them to see how their position (toward calvinism/toward arminianism) fits into the entire Word of God.

A person cannot be "double minded". ALL of the Word will line up with Truth and the position this person embraces had better be consistent with that Truth.

Your post reminds me of some work I did on the immutability of God. We seek to "change God" with our systems, our theologies, and our beliefs, but God will not be changed based on our actions. Virtually every action of humanity reminds us that we can shape our reality as we can cut, file, grind, and bend, but God is not moved. We cannot shape HIS reality by our efforts. We should then, seek to reconcile truth that matches His revelation, not use His revelation to beat each other over the head!

 

[Luke2427]

Two men are saved after hearing the Gospel. Both come forward to publically announce they have been saved, and are then baptized. Both of these two men belong to two separate churches. They both claim Christ alone has saved them. They have no clue about "theology" only that God reached into their lives, and they have been changed. (This is just what happened, I am not implying anything other than this is how they both handled it, publically &c.)

As time goes by they lay claim to an theology as follows:

One embraces classic Arminianism.

The other embraces Calvinism.


So what is at stake? What's the problem with either one, if any at all?


Should we pick their brains and bring light on errors of their understanding, then label them as lost because they don't see things our/your way, according to your theological stance?

What's at stake with these two different believers? Are either one of these two now not born again because of which direction their individual theologies grew?


- Blessings

I don't know any Calvinists who think that all Arminians are lost, so I don't understand your point.

We want people to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That's why we try to convince one another of these things.

Ignorance is not a good thing. We don't choose to leave people in it any more than we would choose to leave then homeless in a dark alley. We want to help those that will let us help them.

We could leave them there- we could say- Oh, they'll live. Just let them alone. But that is not very noble, is it?

 

[Old Union Brother]

For the same answer Amy gave: Pure, selfish pride.

You have guys on here that drag others into debate, then tag and label them with "I can smell you out, you're just religious, you're a pelagian (implicating one as lost), you're a Mormon..." and on and on and on. Who cares what they say, Jesus Christ saved us, not anyone else, not one person on here, and certainly by no ones theological ideologies. Christ alone has saved and always has.

It reminds me of the definition of diablos this sniffing people out and slandering and accusing.

It's not enough that some person has trusted in the finished work of Christ. We have to dissect their theology. It's "Do you believe this that and the other?" Like I said in the past, their theology is their god. How they dot every i and cross every t theologically is called into question, and if you don't do it their way, well watch out.

Jseus didn't say we would be judged by our theology, or intellect, but by our fruit. And some of the fruit on here smells kind of rotten.

We have gotten away from the truth and the beauty of the pure Gospel. Anything else added to it is plain heretical.

My whole intent of this thread was summed up beautifully by Amy. The only thing that matters is that Christ saved us. All the other comparing of self to others is the task of fools.

- Blessings

Good post Preacher. It should cause all of his servants to reflect

When I was ordained to the ministry this was read to me:
1 Timothy
4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

4:2 Preach the word;[/B] be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.[/B]

4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Due to the thorn in the flesh we all have a tendency to get puffed up in the flesh. When I think that I've done something, God shows me that I've done nothing and He reminds me of the charge that I was given: to preach Is word not mine or what some man has told me. and god reminds me of what paul wrote in Galations 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

If we as his ministers could remember these things think of the revival we would have!

A simple country preacher

Jeff

 

[preacher4truth]

First, as Christians we should bring to light errors of their (other Christians) understanding. That is scriptural. (Acts 18:24-38, 19:1-7, Gal. 2:11-14)

Second, we should do so with a spirit of love and patience. We shouldn't be declaring people to be unsaved or saved, imho. We can say their profession of faith and/or the fruit of their lives is consistent with a profession of faith in Christ (or not), but we can't look into another person's heart and see indwelling Holy Spirit or not. We can say that what they believe is consistent with God's Word or not.

What's at stake? The truth of God's Word? Yes, I think so. The right understanding of God's revelation of Himself to His creation. Yes, I think so.

We live in a world where many people do not want to contend for the truth of God's revelation (I'm not accusing you or anyone else here of being such a person). They want to downgrade (not my term) scripture as if the details contained therein are not important.

That said, those two people in your opening OP ought to be able to discuss their beliefs with one another and rationally explain why they believe what they do, without getting angry or being insulting.

However, if their beliefs are contrary to the clear teaching of the Word of God, they ought to change their opinions in favor of God's Word.

peace to youraying:

Errors, certainly, we should bring them to light by God's Word and by His grace.

To dissect a person to shreds who has trusted Christ for full salvation? Foolishness. Edification is to build one up on truth, not to make them feel good about self as it is twisted in it's definition to line up with some psyhological Gospel. The fact that ministers are not good at the edification and the grace part of ministry is quite evident here. We are not as good of ministers as we think we are. Proof? Look at the tearing down.

Blatant heresy? Never tolerated.

Good points. Thanks.

 

[preacher4truth]

Good post Preacher. It should cause all of his servants to reflect

When I was ordained to the ministry this was read to me:
1 Timothy
4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

4:2 Preach the word;[/B] be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.[/B]

4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Due to the thorn in the flesh we all have a tendency to get puffed up in the flesh. When I think that I've done something, God shows me that I've done nothing and He reminds me of the charge that I was given: to preach Is word not mine or what some man has told me. and god reminds me of what paul wrote in Galations 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

If we as his ministers could remember these things think of the revival we would have!

A simple country preacher

Jeff

Thanks for your testimony of how God is working in your heart brother!

May He bless your work today.

- Blessings