Whats the beef between RCC and Baptist anyway?

[Tazman]

I never read so much fighting between denomination as i do at this site. And what I mean by fighting is not just disagreeing with eachother, but going so far as to condemn each specific group.

I'm not Catholic nor am I PC, or Baptist.
I do believe in Scripture being Gods Primary Authority. This may threaten all groups, but it doesn't matter. There are things that all groups teach that are contrary to scriptures and some things that are in harmony with scripture.
Is this true?

But its traditions that prolong disagreements

God should be true and every man a Lie.

Hopefully we all can agree beyond our doctrine, that even within our own group, congregation, or whatever you want to call it, that not everyone will make it unless they stay commited to Christ.

Glory to God because of his spirit the universally unify those who worship Him in truth and faith. Welcome to the body of Christ.

 

[Helen]

Watch your life and and your doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Timothy 4:16

Thought adding a bit of Bible might liven things up...

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Tazman,

On this board, there are several non-Catholics who are also not Baptists who oppose the Catholic Church with considerable energy. These include especially 7th Day Adventists, Lutherans, and even "non-denominationals", which is a misnomer because everyone adheres to one form or another of a Credo, irregardless of whether they admit it or not.

The reason for the tension lies in the fact that Catholics believe that the Church is a visible family of believers who are united around a visible head, which is the successor to St. Peter as well as the successors to the rest of the Apostles who are today's Catholic bishops. The Catholic Church believes that it alone is the Mystical Body of Christ, and that if any non-member is saved, they are saved in virtue of an imperfect, invisible communion with the Church through baptism.

While this tension is present for good reason, I believe that much of the opposition is born out of ignorance. Bishop Fulton Sheen once stated, "Not one hundred people in the United States hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they believe it to be," and I agree with his statement. Much confusion and misrepresentation needs to be cleared.

I hold that the Catholic Church teaches nothing that is contrary to Scripture, and that essentially, when non-Catholics argue that the Church does teach contrary to Scripture, this perception is usually born out of misunderstanding or a difference in interpretation, which does not concern the inspired text in and of itself but rather the hermeneutic of the individual or communion that interprets the particular Scriptural text.

I do believe - as the Church teaches - that Catholics share a considerable amount of commonality with non-Catholics, and the Church rejoices in that. Simultaneously, the Church recognizes that our Lord calls all Christians to unity in his Church, which is the visible Catholic Church united around the successor to St. Peter, the Prime Minister to the Eternal King. The invisible head of the Church is Jesus Christ, and the visible head is the Pope, his vicar on earth. This is where the work of ecumenism falls in; Catholics are called to rejoice in their shared faith with non-Catholic Christians while simultaneously presenting the truth in all of its rigour and vigor, urging our separated brothers and sisters to be fully united with the Bride of Christ both in heart and mind.

 

[MikeS]

Just note, Tazman, that the Catholics here don't make a habit of calling other denominations or people the Whore of Babylon, or pagan, or apostate, or murderers, or the antichrist. For what that's worth...

 

[Kathryn]

Hi, Helen:

Watch your life and and your doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Timothy 4:16

Thought adding a bit of Bible might liven things up...

God Bless

 

[Kathryn]

This has nothing to do with the thread, but a few words of Wisdom from the Old Testament of the Catholic Douay Rheims and also the Waldensian Bible. The Waldensians loved to quote this to whoever would listen to them:

“Water quencheth a flaming fire, and alms resisteth sins: And God provideth for him that sheweth favour: he remembereth him afterwards, and in the time of his fall he shall find a sure stay.” Ecclesiasticus 3:33-34


God Bless

 

[Ray Berrian]

One of the things that greatly frustrate many non-Catholics is when Jesus speaking through the Apostle Paul declares that ' . . . there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,' [I Timothy 2:5] Catholics boldly deny His authority and words of Divine truth and stubbornly insist that this does not matter. They pray to Mary, Padre Pio and multiple numbers of earthly people who now have seen the glorified, beatific vision/sight of our Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Carson said --
hold that the Catholic Church teaches nothing that is contrary to Scripture, and that essentially, when non-Catholics argue that the Church does teach contrary to Scripture, this perception is usually born out of misunderstanding or a difference in interpretation, which does not concern the inspired text in and of itself but rather the hermeneutic of the individual or communion that interprets the particular Scriptural text.

Tazman - the quote that Carson provides above is actually one of the key benefits of this board. If you don't believe me - try taking his quote to a truly Catholic message board and see if you can get the RC members there to discuss their doctrine on the sole basis that Carson proposes above. By the great majority They will condemn your post as being "the vile error of Sola scriptura". (A condemnation that occassionally is even made on this board by some of the RC members).

AS for the "Bible basis" of RC doctrine - check out the thread on Purgatory. Notice the efforts to "Find it in scripture" and notice the detailed review given to those few places where an attempt is made to discover "The saints are burned and tortured after death to purge away some types of sin". Or to find "the spiritual bank of suffering" with "Drafts written" out in the form of "indulgences".

There are so many of these blatant superstitions from the dark ages that still linger in Catholicism - that you have to "expect" them to be challenged - once a fair and open statement is given (such as Carson's above) inviting such close "review" on the basis of Scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

It won't take much study or a long time on any religious board to find out that very quickly the Roman Catholic Church favors or elevates church dogma/tradition/ex cathedras of the papal chair over what the Lord God has said, once for all, in the Bible, the Word coming from the living God.

You tell me what apostate church/denomination the Lord is talking about who 'forbids to marry' and has 'abstained from eating of meat'? [I Timothy 4:3]

 

[MikeS]

OK, so far in four non-Catholic posts we have boldly (!) denying Christ's authority, blatant (!) superstitions and the ever-popular apostacy. And so it goes...

Thank you, Helen, for not making it a perfect four-for-four.

 

[John Gilmore]

I think it is refreshing that doctrinal differences are discussed rather than ignored. People know what their church teaches, agree with it, and refute other teachings. Interfaith discussion groups prove that doctrine still matters even in the 21st century.

In American society, there is tendency to subscribe to a general civic religion and paper over religious differences. But the gods that many Americans worship are idols that save no one.

There is only one God that saves. Christians worship that one true God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity.

1. We All Believe in One True God
Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,
Ever-present Help in need,
Praised by all the heavenly host,
By whose mighty power alone
All is made and wrought and done.

2. We all belive in Jesus Christ,
Son of God and Mary's Son,
Who descended from His thrones
And for us salvation won;
By whose cross and death are we
Rescued from all misery.

3. We all confess the Holy Ghost,
Who from both fore'er proceeds;
Who uphold and comforts us
In all trials, fears,and needs.
Blest and holy Trinity,
Praise forever be to Thee!

Tobias Clausnitzer

[ August 03, 2003, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

[CatholicConvert]

One of the things that greatly frustrate many non-Catholics is when Jesus speaking through the Apostle Paul declares that ' . . . there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,' [I Timothy 2:5]

Ray --

You started out on this board in a rather nice fashion, and yet have now joined the chorus of those who both continue to express misleading information peppered with inuendo, slander, and outright lies.

Your exegesis is also woefully lacking, and I care not a whit if you are seminary trained or not. Just because you went to a seminary doesn't mean that you are necessarily smart in regards to the things of Scripture and the Lord. A seminary only trains what it believes, which means, in the case of those who train in that which is not truth, that they are merely brainwashing willing minds. The Pharisees noted that the apostles were "ignorant and unlearned men" and marveled at them because of how they taught. Even a dolt like me can learn if he is willing to be taught. Your fear of Cathoilicism has closed your mind to learning. You and many others on this board. Men like Carson and others do a profoundly good job of explaining the Faith to you and others, but you are not willing to listen.

As for the mediatorship issue, that has to with the covenant between God and man, of which Christ Jesus is the Last Adam, the new and permanent federal head over mankind.

Heb 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 9:15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Is that enough Scripture for you, or do I have to "carpet bomb" you with exegesis to prove my point?

The saints, both those on earth and those in Heaven, are not mediators of the covenant of God's salvation. We all mediate for one another in prayer, but only Christ, as the Great High Priest who offers eternal YOM KIPPUR for God's people, the Israel of God, is the mediator of the covenant of salvation. Only He could offer His Blood for the world, only He prays to the Father and offers that Blood perpetually in Heaven for the sins of the Church, and only He could reunite man and God through His sacrifice. But that is not the same thing as our mediation for one another as we journey towards Heaven. Of course, since you believe I assume ) in the heresy of "once saved - always saved" , there really is no need for any mediation, is there?

Catholics boldly deny His authority and words of Divine truth and stubbornly insist that this does not matter.

This is an outright LIE and you should be ashamed of yourself. EVERYTHING in the Church and in the Faith is based upon the authority of Jesus, the Last Adam, and the authority He has and has given to His Church and the apostolic offices. If ANYONE denies authority, it is that motley crew of rebels called Protestants who will brook NNE telling them what to believe or how to behave!! I cannot begin to tell you how many times I heard BOASTED from the pulpit

"NNE tells ME what to preach and NNE tells ME how to run MY CHURCH!!"

YOUR CHURCH!!

Well, I guess so, because being Independant Fundamentalist, it certainly is NOT God's Church, which He established upon St. Peter and the apostolic offices.

They pray to Mary,

Of course I do. She is the Mother of all who are truly alive in Christ. Don't you talk to your earthly mother?

Padre Pio and multiple numbers of earthly people who now have seen the glorified, beatific vision/sight of our Lord.

The communion of the saints has been discussed here ad nauseum. I will not belabor the point. We are united in Christ and all of one Body -- ALIVE IN HIM!!

Enough said.

To answer the original question, the animus between Catholics and non-Catholics comes from

1. misunderstanding of the teachings of the Church by those who are outside of Her.

2. stubborn rebellious refusal to bow to Her authority (which sadly plagues the Church Herself from within by such men as apostate California baby-killing governor Gray Davis and his ilk).

3. fear that Catholic doctrines and teachings are soul damning and will lead one to hell.

4. and the most telling, upon which the so called "reformation" was based, a real and substantial argument about how one is justified before God. As one Protestant said "If you remove the issue of justification, there is simply no reason for the Reformation".

Indeed.

And the worst problem is the habit of the Catholic Church, as put by Dave Armstrong on his website, of "putting wonderful and glorious truths in absolute obscure and non understandble language."

Amen. No wonder there are so many theologically illiterate Catholic laity and no wonder the average Protestant, upon reading some of the encyclicals or other works of the Church, throws his hands up in frustration. We are fortunate to have such men as Scott Hahn and the whole realm of Protestant converts to be out there clearly explaining the Faith.

Now if we could only get people like you, Ray, to stop and listen.

 

[Yelsew]

The invisible head of the Church is Jesus Christ, and the visible head is the Pope, his vicar on earth.

Catholics would have everyone believe that the body of Christ requires two (2) heads. This is but another FALSE doctrine!

Scriptures most clearly tell us that Christ is the Head of the Body, and that all parts of the body are just that,...parts of the body.

 

[Yelsew]

Heb 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 9:15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Is that enough Scripture for you, or do I have to "carpet bomb" you with exegesis to prove my point?

Each of these points is that Jesus alone is the mediator between God and Man! NOT ONE OF THESE is a reference to PETER or the APOSTLES, YET the Catholic Church ALWAYS STATES that the POPE and the BISHOPS are the mediators between the Sheep and "the head shepherd"

There is but one who is worthy! That one is Jesus, the Son of God, The Christ!

 

[Yelsew]

They pray to Mary,

Of course I do. She is the Mother of all who are truly alive in Christ. Don't you talk to your earthly mother?

When I was learning Catholic doctrine in a Catholic Church, I too was taught to pray to Mary. I take serious objection to praying to departed saints and Mary the mother of Jesus, in that, it is the content of the prayers that I was taught to pray that I object to.

I was taught to pray to Mary for"
</font>

• My own personal salvation</font>
• my personal provisions</font>
• the salvation of departed relatives</font>
• etc.</font>

Each of these prayer items in direct conflict to Holy Scripture. No where does the scriptures ever say to pray to the departed saints. It is False doctrine to do so!

Furthermore, I have subsequently learned that necromancy includes communion and communication with the dead. Scriptures clearly warn against such, while the Catholic church encourages it! That is a very OCCULTIC practice.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Thank you for proving my point, Wesley.

You are so engrained in your point that you cannot see the word "covenant" in those verses. Christ is the covenant mediator. If you would go back and STUDY your Bible, instead of flippin' out typical knee jerk Protestant reactions, you might learn what a covenant is, how it works, and the ramifications of that God's covenant with mankind.

Christ mediates as our Great High Priest. Go study the original high priesthood so that you can understand how Christ fulfills the type found in the Old Covenant. Once you come to understand that, you will understand what is meant when Scripture says that He is the "only mediator between God and man." It has to do with covenantal headship and the work He does as High Priest.

Do you guys EVER study type/antetype fulfillments?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Thank you for proving my point, Wesley.

You are so engrained in your point that you cannot see the word "covenant" in those verses. Christ is the covenant mediator. If you would go back and STUDY your Bible, instead of flippin' out typical knee jerk Protestant reactions, you might learn what a covenant is, how it works, and the ramifications of that God's covenant with mankind.

Christ mediates as our Great High Priest. Go study the original high priesthood so that you can understand how Christ fulfills the type found in the Old Covenant. Once you come to understand that, you will understand what is meant when Scripture says that He is the "only mediator between God and man." It has to do with covenantal headship and the work He does as High Priest.

Do you guys EVER study type/antetype fulfillments?

Then why pray to Mary if Jesus is the Mediator? Mary mediates nothing, she is a part of the Body of Christ, not part of the Head, and that is the point! Praying to Mary is like going to the cleaning lady to have her deliver your petition to the president of the company.

Mary is not God! She is not the wife of God! She was, and remains, 100% human in every detail of her existence. She is not Deity, is not worthy to receive our prayers, any more than Joe Schmuck, or Harvey Stickinthemud is worthy!

She Has NO power over Jesus.
Jesus, being God, requires NO ADVISORS!
Jesus, being God, requires NO intermediaries between Himself and Man!
Jesus being the Son of God, is God..."I and the Father are one". He is not just "the mediator" between God and man, according to Catholic Doctrine, HE IS GOD, a fully integrated and compliant person in the triune Godhead of Elohim! Jesus is the creator, was with God, and is God. By him were all things made! He is called Emmanuel, that is, "GOD WITH US"! Don't you read your own scripture?

If you would remove all the "trappings of religion" that inhibit your understanding of God, you too would abandon Catholocism and its death traps, in favor of a personal, intimate relationship with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit...ALL, "ONE GOD", that I enjoy every moment of every day!

But, alas, you won't do so because you are "so engrained" in the Roman dogma, that you cannot see the truth! You are a 'priest' in the fashion of the priests of Jesus day, and Jesus made it quite clear what He thought of them! That is, you are so engrained in the 'practice of religion' that you have missed the relationship with God!

It is not religion that God is pleased with, it is relationship!

 

[Glen Seeker]

It is not religion that God is pleased with, it is relationship!

The Word of God according to Yelsew.

Do you ever pray for anyone? Stop it! That's being a mediator. Are you trying to take the place of Jesus?

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you? If yes, then you have asked them to mediate for you.
Have you asked them to take the place of Jesus?

The catch phrase,"Not Religion but Relationship,"
sounds really silly to this Catholic. That's because I see the Catholic faith as one of total relationship...a FAMILY relationship.

In a family we care for each other and pray for each other. Those who are able will help those in need. To me, that's the Family of God, the Body of Christ and the Communion of Saints. Now, that's relationship!

 

[CatholicConvert]

Then why pray to Mary if Jesus is the Mediator? Mary mediates nothing, she is a part of the Body of Christ, not part of the Head, and that is the point! Praying to Mary is like going to the cleaning lady to have her deliver your petition to the president of the company.

We have been down this road ad infinitum, with probably every Catholic on this board responding to all who have said the same things you are saying. It does get a bit tiring after a while.

It is quite clear from Scripture that one human being can and does mediate for another. Look at the story of the men who brought the lame man to Jesus. Remember? The ones who couldn't get through to Jesus and went up on the roof and tore it open to lower the sick man down to Jesus.

It says Mt 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Imagine that. Because of the faith of someone else Jesus responds with healing for one who is apparently too ill to even have faith of his own. Of course, this doesn't even show up on the Protestant radar, does it?

Mary is not God!

For about the billioneth time....nothing in Catholic theology nor anyone on this board has ever intimated that She is.

She is not the wife of God!

Says you. Of course, you are not the one who determines this, so your thoughts are inconsequential regarding this. It is quite interesting that God treated Her as one would treat a spouse. He shared His life-giving seed with Her and brought forth life from Her womb. Sounds like a wife to me in every facet of the meaning.

She was, and remains, 100% human in every detail of her existence.

Wrong again. She is now in Her glorified body, which is more than just human. She, like all believers shall one day, shares intimately in the divine glories which are Hers (and to be ours) by grace.

She is not Deity, is not worthy to receive our prayers, any more than Joe Schmuck, or Harvey Stickinthemud is worthy!

She is the Queen of Heaven and quite worthy, by the sheer grace of God which made Her worthy, to receive our prayers and offer them to Her divine Son as petitions for our good. She is the New Eve, for just as Jesus in His humanity is the Last Adam, replacing Adam the first, so the Blessed Virgin is the New Eve. The redemption of what was lost in the Garden requires both an Adam and an Eve to replace the two who fell from grace and forfeited their place of authority and rulership over mankind. Without the New Eve, the work of redeeming the Garden family is incomplete. Think it through!!

She Has NO power over Jesus.

Of course not. No one suggests that She does. Her prayers, like all those of the saints and angels in Heaven, conform to the will of God for the good of all who are prayed for.

Jesus, being God, requires NO ADVISORS!

No one is suggesting that.

Jesus, being God, requires NO intermediaries between Himself and Man!

Depends on how you mean the word "intermediaries".

If you would remove all the "trappings of religion" that inhibit your understanding of God, you too would abandon Catholocism and its death traps, in favor of a personal, intimate relationship with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit...ALL, "ONE GOD", that I enjoy every moment of every day!

I can think of nothing more intimate than the marital bed and the union of "one flesh" between a man and a woman. The corresponding union between God and man is the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist, where Christ God gives to us His own Flesh and Blood, thus pouring His divine life into us and becoming "one flesh" with us as HIS BRIDE. You do remember that we are the Bride of Christ, don't you?

For those who have received the grace to "see", there is simply no more intimate RELATIONSHIP than the Eucharist. And our Faith is all about relationship, but like all relationships, it is expressed in what we do outwardly. Just as my love for my wife is shown by the things I do to please her, so my relationship to God is fulfilled and shown by doing those things which He has given to the Church as Sacraments. If He has set the terms of His worship and of how we enter that "one flesh" relationship with Him, WHO am I that I would change that because it doesn't appeal to me or my understanding???

But, alas, you won't do so because you are "so engrained" in the Roman dogma, that you cannot see the truth!

No, what I have done is to find the truth after 25 years of VICIOUS PROTESTANT LIES which kept me out of the Church and deprived me of the blessing of the Sacraments. I try hard not to be angry at those who lied to my face, but it is not easy.

You are a 'priest' in the fashion of the priests of Jesus day, and Jesus made it quite clear what He thought of them! That is, you are so engrained in the 'practice of religion' that you have missed the relationship with God!

And you are a rebel after the fashion of King Saul and all others who thought that their way bested God's given way. That is the heart of rebellion. You do not understand and because you don't, combined with the fear of Catholic doctrine you have been taught, your eyes are shut and your ears stopped.

It is not religion that God is pleased with, it is relationship!

Religion is simply the outward expression of the inward love of God. When the religion practiced is that which the Lord Himself gave to the world, it is the highest form of both trust in the Lord and love to Him. Those who reject the Catholic Faith by claiming that the Church apostacized from the Truth do a very great insult to the veracity of Christ and His faithfulness to His Bride the Church. He promised that the Church would never be taken over by the gates of hell.

Disagree?

Take it up with Him on the Judgment Day.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Yelsew,

You have told us the truth. Some may not like the straight forward presentation but then prophets of all ages did not soft-peddle the truth coming from God.

God is awesome beyond what any of us really understand; we are better off knowing the truth here and now than when we stand before Almighty God is all of His truthfulness and holiness. Jesus is not a 'nickel and dime god' who we can push around with ideas like the co-redemptrix of Christ, namely His precious mother.

Keep with the Word of God and you will always be showing us more of His truths.