What's wrong with Catholicism?

[ January 20, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: jimslade ]

 

Cant be done briefly so I wont bother.

 

[ January 20, 2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: jimslade ]

 

In no particular order:

1) Deficient view of salvation: Synergism, justification, grace

2) Mariolatry: basically the Marian dogmas

3) Deficient view of Scripture: Canon and relationship to tradition. This includes their interpretive mehtodology regarding both scripture and history

4) Deficient ecclessiology: Papacy, epsicopalism and related errors, as well as exagerated understanding of communiuon of saints, also including the whole intercession of dead saints thing

5) Deficient view of Christ, his work, relating especialy to the mass.

I tried to be as general as possible, so as to catch as many errors as possible.

 

I agree with the things Jim and Latreia have posted.
The thing that is most wrong with Catholicism is that it is not Christianity.

Catechism 2010 ...Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces need for our sanctification, and for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life....

Do-it-yourself salvation is not biblical and it is certainly not Christianity.

MR

 

I"ll tell you one thing that is definately wrong with Catholicism... They don't allow Nuns or Priests to marry! ... Behind every Baptist preacher is a wife keeping the the preacher in line!... Brother Glen

[ January 17, 2003, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

Well the only thing that kept Brian from posting in the Religion and other doctrines forums that I could figure out is he was probably afraid the Catholics would descend on him in MASS? ... Brother Glen

 

Brian I have found while dealing with catholics that many of them are catholic because of family tradition.One of the books I have found most useful is the catechism book.It lists their beliefs by article number and is the official teaching their church clings to.They have been taught the lingo to combat baptist.

 

This is an online Cathelic Cathecism.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

1370 To the offering of Christ are united not only the members still here on earth, but also those already in the glory of heaven. In communion with and commemorating the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, the Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. In the Eucharist the Church is as it were at the foot of the cross with Mary, united with the offering and intercession of Christ.

1371 The Eucharistic sacrifice is also offered for the faithful departed who "have died in Christ but are not yet wholly purified,"193 so that they may be able to enter into the light and peace of Christ:

Put this body anywhere! Don't trouble yourselves about it! I simply ask you to remember me at the Lord's altar wherever you are.194

Then, we pray [in the anaphora] for the holy fathers and bishops who have fallen asleep, and in general for all who have fallen asleep before us, in the belief that it is a great benefit to the souls on whose behalf the supplication is offered, while the holy and tremendous Victim is present. . . . By offering to God our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, if they have sinned, we . . . offer Christ sacrificed for the sins of all, and so render favorable, for them and for us, the God who loves man.195

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SALVATION:

1. The RC teaches: Justification is a transformation of the soul in which original sin is removed and sanctifying grace infused. (Catechism of 1987-1995)

The Bible teaches: Justification is an act of God in which He declares a sinner to be righteous in His sight, having forgiven his sins and imputed to him God's own righteousness. Romans 3:21-4:8

2. The RC teaches: Initial justification is by means of baptism. (Catechism of 1262-1274)

The Bible teaches: Justification is by faith alone. Romans 3:28

3. The RC teaches: Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works. (Catechism of 1247-1249)

The Bible teaches: God justifies ungodly sinners who believe (Romans 4:5). Good works are the result of salvation, not the cause. Ephesians 2:8-10.

4. The RC teaches: The justified are in themselves beautiful and holy in God's sight. (Catechisms of 1992, 1999-2000, 2024)

The Bible teaches: The justified are in Christ holy and blameless before God. Ephesians 1:1-14

5. The RC teaches: Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works. (Catechisms 1212, 1392, 2010)

The Bible teaches: Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (II Cor. 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete. Col.2:10

6. The RC teaches: Justification is lost through mortal sin. (Catechisms 1033, 1855, 1874)

The Bible teaches: Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God. Romans 5:8,9.

7. The RC teaches: Catholics guilty of mortal sin are justified again through the sacrament of penance. (Catechisms 980, 1446)

The Bible teaches: There is no second justification. Those whom God justifies, He also glorifies. Romans 8:30.

8. The RC teaches: Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is a lifelong process. (Catechisms 161-162, 1254-1255)

The Bible teaches: Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is an instantaneous and secure act of God coinciding with justification. Romans 5:9

9. The RC teaches: Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments. (Catechisms 183, 1129, 1815, 2002).

The Bible teaches: Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Eph. 2:8&9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation. Eph. 2:10.

10. The RC teaches: Faith is belief in God and the firm acceptance of all that the Church proposes for belief. (Catechisms 181-182, 1814).

The Bible teaches: Saving faith is the entrusting of oneself to Christ as Lord and Savior. Romans 10:8-17.

11. The RC teaches: Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul. (Catechism 1999-2000).

The Bible teaches: Grace is the undeserved favor of God. Ephesians 1:7&8.

12. The RC teaches: The sacraments are necessary channels for the continual infusion of grace. They bestow grace in virtue of the rite performed. (Catechism 1127-1129).

The Bible teaches: The child of God is the constant object of the Father's grace. Romans 5:1&2

13. The RC teaches: Grace is merited by good works. (Catechisms 2010, 2027).

The Bible teaches: Grace is a free gift. Romans 11:6.

14. The RC teaches: Venial sins do not incur eternal punishment. (Cathechisms 1855, 1863).

The Bible teaches: Every sin is punishable by eternal death. Romans 6:23.

15. The RC teaches: Serious sins must be confess to a priest. (Catechisms 1456-1457).

The Bible teaches: Sin is to be confessed directly to God. Ezra 10:11.

16. The RC teaches: The priest forgives sin as a judge. (Catechisms 1442, 1461).

The Bible teaches: No one can forgive sin but God alone. Mark 2:7.

17. The RC teaches: When the guilt of sin is forgiven, temporal punishment remains. (Catechisms 1472-1473).

The Bible teaches: When God forgives sin, He completely forgives. Colossians 2:13, Isaiah 43:25.

18. The RC teaches: Acts of penance make satisfaction for the temporal punishment of sin. (Catechisms 1434, 1459-1460).

The Bible teaches: Jesus made perfect satisfaction for all sins. I John 2:1&2.

19. The RC teaches: Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment. (Catechism 1471-1473).

The Bible teaches: Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. Revelation 1:5.

20. The RC teaches: Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and cleanse the soul. (Catechism 1030-1031).

The Bible teaches: Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross. Hebrews 1:3.

21. The RC teaches: Poor souls suffering in purgatory can be helped by those alive on earth offering up prayers, good works, and the sacrifice of the Mass. (Catechisms 1032, 1371, 1479).

The Bible teaches: Those who sleep in Christ need no help. To be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. II Cor. 5:8.

22. The RC teaches: No one can know if he will attain to eternal life. (Catechisms 1036, 2005).

The Bible teaches: The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God. I John 5:13.

23. The RC teaches: Eternal life is a merited reward. (Catechisms 1821, 2010).

The Bible teaches: Eternal life is the free gift of God. Romans 6:23.

24. The RC teaches: The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. (Catechism 846).

The Bible teaches: There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, "For there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12

25. The RC teaches: The Last Supper was a real sacrifice in which Christ's blood was poured out for our sins in the cup. (Catechisms 610-611, 621, 1339).

The Bible teaches: The Last Supper was a Passover meal. Christ's blood was poured out for our sins at the cross. I Peter 2:24.

26. The RC teaches: The bread and wine become the real body and blood of Christ. (Catechism 1373-1377).

The Bible teaches: The bread and wine are symbols of the body and blood of Christ. I Cor. 11:23-25.

27. The RC teaches: Christ's body and blood exist wholly and entirely in every fragment of consecrated bread and wine in every Roman Catholic church around the world. (Catechisms 1374, 1377).

The Bible teaches: Christ is bodily present in heaven. Hebrews 10:12&13.

28. The RC teaches: The consecrated bread and wine are heavenly food which help one to attain to eternal life. (Catechisms 1392, 1405, 1419).

The Bible teaches: The bread and wine are symbols which help one to remember Christ. Luke 22:19.

29. The RC teaches: God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. (Catechisms 1378-1381).

The Bible teaches: God forbids the worship of any object, even those intended to represent Him. Exodus 20:4&5, Isaiah 42:8.

30. The RC teaches: Christ has ordained certain men to a ministerial priesthood to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross. (Catechisms 1142, 1547, 1577).

The Bible teaches: Christ has ordained every believer to a holy and royal priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices, the praise of their lips, and lives yielded to God. I Peter 2:5-10, Heb. 13:15, Romans 12:1.

31. The RC teaches: The Sacrifice of the Mass is the sacrifice of the cross. (Catechisms 1085, 1365-67). Only the manner in which it is offered is different. (Catechism 1367).

The Bible teaches: The sacrifice of the cross is a historical event. It occurred once approximately 2000 years ago, outside Jerusalem. Mark 15:21-41.

32. The RC teaches: The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass. (Catechisms 1323, 1382).

The Bible teaches: The sacrifice of the cross is finished. John 19:30.

33. The RC teaches: The Mass makes Christ present in His death and victimhood. (Catechisms 1353, 1362, 1364, 1367, 1409).

The Bible teaches: Christ cannot be made present in His death and victimhood, for He has risen and is "alive forevermore." Rev. 1:17&18, Romans 6:9&10.

34. The RC teaches: At each Mass, the priest re-presents to the Father the sacrifice of Christ. (Catechisms 1354, 1357).

The Bible teaches: Christ presented the sacrifice of Himself to the Father "once at the consummation of the ages." Hebrews 9:24-28.

35. The RC teaches: The Mass is an unbloody sacrifice which atones for the sins of the living and the dead. (Catechisms 1367, 1371, 1414).

The Bible teaches: Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Leviticus 17:11, Heb. 9:22.

36. The RC teaches: Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God's wrath against sin. (Catechisms 1371, 1414).

The Bible teaches: The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God's wrath against sin. Heb. 10:12-18.

37. The RC teaches: The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass. (Catechisms 1366, 1407).

The Bible teaches: Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith. Eph. 1:3-14.

38. The RC teaches: The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. (Catechisms 1364, 1405, 1846).

The Bible teaches: The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross. Eph. 1:7, Heb. 1:3.

39. The RC teaches: The Church is to continue the sacrifice of Christ for the salvation of the world. (Catechisms 1323, 1382, 1405, 1407).

The Bible teaches: The church is to proclaim the Lord's death for the salvation of the world. I Cor. 11:26.

40. The RC teaches: Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception). (Catechisms 490-492).

The Bible teaches: Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin. Psalm 51:5, Romans 5:12.

41. The RC teaches; Mary, "the All-Holy", lived a perfectly sinless life. (Catechisms 411, 493).

The Bible teaches: Mary was a sinner; God alone is holy. Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Rev. 15:4.

42. The RC teaches: Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ. (Catechisms 496-511).

The Bible teaches: Mary was a virgin until the birth of Christ. (Matt. 1:25). Later, she had other children. Matthew 13:55&56, Psalm 69:8.

43. The RC teaches: Mary is the Mother of God. (Catechisms 963, 971, 2677).

The Bible teaches: Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus. John 2:1.

44. The RC teaches: Mary is the Mother of the Church. (Catechisms 963, 975).

The Bible teaches: Mary is a member of the church. Acts 1:14, I Cor. 12:13,27.

45. The RC teaches: Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participated with Christ in the painful act of redemption. (Catechisms 618, 964, 968, 970).

The Bible teaches: Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin. I Peter 1:18&19.

46. The RC teaches: At the end of her life, Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven (the doctrine of The Assumption). (Catechisms 966, 974).

The Bible teaches: Upon her death, Mary's body returned to dust. Genesis 3:19.

47. The RC teaches: Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. (Catechisms 968-970, 2677).

The Bible teaches: Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. I Timothy 2:5, John 14:13&14, I Peter 5:7.

48. The RC teaches: We should entrust ourselves to Mary, surrendering "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. (Catechism 2677).

The Bible teaches: We should entrust ourselves to the Lord Jesus, surrendering the hour of our death wholly to His care. Romans 10:13, Acts 4:12.

49. The RC teaches: God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth. (Catechism 966). She is to be praised with special devotion. (Catechism 971, 2675).

The Bible teaches: The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth. (Psalm 148:13). God commands, "You shall have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:3

50. The RC teaches: Peter was the head of the apostles. (Catechisms 552, 765, 880).

The Bible teaches: Christ was the head of the apostles. John 13:13.

51. The bishops are the successors of the apostles. (Catechisms 861-862, 938).

The Bible teaches: The apostles had no successors, for to succeed them one needed to be a witness of Christ's resurrection. Acts 1:21&22.

52. The Pope, as the Bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter. (Catechisms 882, 936).

The Bible teaches: Peter had no successor.

53. The RC teaches: The bishops, with the Pope as their head, rule the universal Church. (Catechisms 883, 894-896).

The Bible teaches: Christ, the head of the body, rules the universal church. Colossians 1:18.

54. The RC teaches: God has entrusted revelation to the Roman Catholic bishops. (Catechisms 81, 86).

The Bible teaches: God has entrusted revelation to the saints. Jude 3.

55. The RC teaches: The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. (Catechisms 85-87).

The Bible teaches: The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church. John 14:26, 16:13, I John 2:27.

56. The RC teaches: The Magisterium is the infallible interpreter of Scripture. (Catechisms 890-891, 2034, 2035).

The Bible teaches: Scripture is the only infallible interpreter of Scripture. Acts 17:11.

57. The RC teaches: The Pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching. (Catechism 891).

The Bible teaches: God alone is infallible. Numbers 23:19.

58. The RC teaches: The Magisterium alone has the ability and the right to interpret Scripture. (Catechisms 85, 100, 939).

The Bible teaches: Every Christian, aided by the Holy Spirit, has the ability and the right to interpret Scripture. Acts 17:11, I Cor. 2:12-16.

59. The RC teaches: Scripture is to be interpreted in the sense in which it has been defined by the Magisterium. (Catechisms 113, 119).

The Bible teaches: Scripture must be interpreted in the original sense intended by the Holy Spirit. II Peter 3:14-16.

60. The RC teaches: The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicityly in revelation. (Catechisms 66, 88, 2035, 2051).

The Bible teaches: No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture. I Cor. 4:6, Prov. 30:6.

61. The RC teaches: Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God. (Catechisms 81, 85, 97, 182).

The Bible teaches: Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, II Timothy 3:16&17, II Peter 1:20&21). Tradition is the words of men. Mark 7:1-13.

62. The RC teaches: Scripture and Tradition together are the Church's supreme rule of faith. (Catechisms 80, 82).

The Bible teaches: Scripture is the church's rule of faith. Mark 7:7-13, II Timothy 3:16&17.

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A servant of Christ,
Drew

 

Wow, Drew. If that was brief, what is your explanation of long!?!

I was a Catholic until I denied the existance of God. 5 things that I saw after I went back, after the Lord opened my eyes:

1. Salvation message- I was a Catholic for 23 years and never was given the Gospel message. They give a short homily out of a portion of scripture, but never in a whole message.

2. Bible knowledge- The people lack Bible knowledge, and could care even less of its content. In all the catholic churches I was in, none, 0, studied the Bible. It was the catholic publications that they knew. We didn't even have to bring a Bible to mass because they provided booklets, with the answers (responses).

3. Baptism- I had all of my family refuse to come to my baptism because I was "already baptised".

4. Communion- I never knew that Christ came down and gave himself every time they had communion. An ongoing thing, never fully forgiving once, for all.

5. Holiness- to the Catholics, that means the Pope. You are never told you can be holy. You can't even be pure enough to assure your entrance into heaven.

 

Dear Theolivebranch;

You ought to see me when I really get wound-up..

Seriously I just wanted Brian to have a comparison to work with, from the Word of God contrasted with their own statement of faith of the Catholic Church. This way he can examine for himself and pick and choose what he wants to use, as well as having access to a Cathecism online.

God bless you for your testimony, the tremendous credibility which you bring to the discussion, and your heart for Christ which is such an example to others.

A servant of Christ,
Drew

 

Hi Brian T;

Necromancy or contacting the dead

Idolatry

only the priest can interpret scripture

They have about 99 to 1 shrines of Mary to Jesus

Making Mary the Mother of God.And referring to her as deity

Having to call priest Father;
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Indulgences

Referring to the pope as deity:in that they believe every thing he says is the word of God.

Peter was never in Rome for the Vatican to be built on top of his grave.

The inquisition

Nuns are married to Christ without the physical Presents of Christ.

The murder of millions of Christians and Jews for the noncompliance of the Catholic doctrine.

The Vatican rat lines.Used to keep the nazis from being prosecuted for war crimes.

Forced religion

Child molesting priest.

I could go on for a long time. to make it short the Bible says that you can't get good fruit from a corrupt tree.
Romanbear
Peace

 

My mom came out of Cath. and i was baptized Catholic until she got saved and myself a few years later.
it boils down to this : Is it done? or must I still do?
Orthodox Christians would say Christ has completed all I need to be saved on the cross. All i need to do is believe Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5
Catholics say believe AND do to be saved, grace is dispensed through the RCC.
Also as Baptist we believe in the Absolute and sole authority oof the Scriptures "sola Scriptura"
Catholics would say : Bible + the church fathers + the popes when they speak "ex cathedra"
reubdog

 

Necromancy or contacting the dead
I disagree that asking those who have gone to be with the Lord to pray for us would be considered necromacy.

Idolatry
Since Catholics worship only God, I don't consider their practice of worship idolatrous.

only the priest can interpret scripture
Are you referring to the church taking official positions on biblical matters, such as abortion and premarital sex? Baptist churches do this as well.

If you're referring to individuals interpreting scripture, no, priests aren't the only ones that can interpret scripture. Catholics have bible studies like the rest of us where they study and interpret sctipture.

They have about 99 to 1 shrines of Mary to Jesus
Not just mary, but lots of saints and biblical characters. I think your ration's a bit high, but I understand your point. It's a pet peeve which I've voiced as well. Although, to their credit, there's a status of Jesus in every church, and it's usually dead center, affixed to a cross, in plain view.

Making Mary the Mother of God.
She is the mother of God: God the Son.

And referring to her as deity
In 12 years of catholic school, I was never once instructed to refer to Mary as a deity. Catholics believe that only God (father son spirit) is a deity.

Having to call priest Father;
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
I don't think this referrs to the father in the same way.

Indulgences
If you're referring to penance, it is done by confession and prayer. I don't see the problem.

Referring to the pope as deity
They don't.

in that they believe every thing he says is the word of God.
They don't. This is a common misconception about the idea of papel infallibility. Statements of infallibility are incredibly rare. I think there have only been three.

Peter was never in Rome for the Vatican to be built on top of his grave.
Both Peter and Paul preached in Rome.

The inquisition
Is an inexcuseable and an unfortunate part of history.

Nuns are married to Christ without the physical Presents of Christ.
All clergy are supposed to be the brides of Christ, not just nuns. I don't see the probelm.

The murder of millions of Christians and Jews for the noncompliance of the Catholic doctrine.Also an inexcuseable and an unfortunate part of history.

The Vatican rat lines.Used to keep the nazis from being prosecuted for war crimes.
I don't know much about them, but the RCC should apologize for this practice.

Forced religion
No longer practiced.

Child molesting priest.
Something that needs to be dealt with.