What's wrong with the so-called Pre-Wrath view?

Friends,

The latest attempt to preserve the view that 7 trumpets follow the 7th Seal and 7 plagues follow the 7th Trumpet is the "PRE-WRATH RAPTURE".

This view places the Rapture at the opening of Seal Six ... not realizing the Day of God's and the Lamb's Wrath fulfills 60 of 100 verses in the Book of Revelation before Trump 7 announces the "appointed time has come" for RESURRECTION, RAPTURE, REWARDS AND RETRIBUTION". Rev.11:18.

This view assumes God's wrath is "contained" in both the trumpets and plagues even though God's wrath is not even announced as "having come" until the 7th Trumpet. This is obviously inconsistent.

All views of God's wrath, except the Post-Trib view, fail to show that those who survive the great tribulation will be "kept from the hour of trial" that Jesus says will come "suddenly, as a snare, on all those dwelling on all the face of all the earth" AFTER they "see the signs of His coming in power and great glory"! Luke 17:27-35.

The "Hour of Trial" occurs when Christ comes "quickly" on the Day that comes "suddenly, as a snare on all earth-dwellers ... when they see Him appear in Person" ... after He "gathers the elect from earth to heaven and the tribes of earth begin to mourn and keep begging to escape and to prevail to stand before the Son of Man"! Rev.3:10-11; Luke 21:27-36; Matt.24:30-31; Luke 17:27-30; 2 Thess.1:7-10.

Millions of suddenly convinced unbelievers will be "kept alive" to enter and populate the kingdom. IMO, the "tribes of earth who will keep on begging"
(Greek) will include up to 500 million descendants of Ishamel's 12 tribes! Luke 17:33.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

Pre-Wrath

Friends,

I suspect this new view of the time for the Rapture has not yet become a subject for discussion among you all.

I am not allowed to participate on one site that has over 200 members.
They believe too strongly that, since (if) the seals are followed by 7 trumpets and then by the plagues, the Great Tribulation AND Rapture must occur before the Trumpets and the Plagues OR at least before the Plagues. Like the Pre-Tribbers, they do not agree among themselves as to the "unknown" Day of the Lord.

The Pre-Trib view allows God's wrath in the Seals as well as the trumpets and plagues. The Post-Trib view sees God's wrath restricted to the Day and Hour Christ appears with all the Saints. That Day and HOUR, while occurring after the 1260 days of great tribulation, is still "unknown" except to the Father. He alone knows when the last martyr will be killed. He alone sends the message to the Son of Man, via three angels including the Angel of Fire, that the "HOUR to reap the earth has come".
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

Pre-Wrath

:love2: Friends,

The switch by some from Pre-Trib to a Pre-Wrath Rapture was made by putting the Rapture at Seal Six AFTER the great tribulation.

Then they put the Plagues of God's anger (thumos) after the Rapture
on the assumption that they "complete (FINISH) God's wrath" (orgay).
Rev.15:1. Instead they "exhaust God's patience". New Jerusalem Bible.

The advocates of this view cannot agree among themselves on whether the 7 Trumpets, as well as the 7 Plagues, are part of God's wrath (orgay). They must admit His wrath (orgay) "has come" as of the Last Trumpet in Revelation. Rev.11:18.

God's patience, even with the Beast's armies, does not end until the
7th Plague FINISHES God's macro-thumos (long-anger or long-suffering).
The fact that the wicked could "repent" under the 6th Trumpet AS WELL
AS the 5th Vial reveals that God's patience (thumos) continues until
the 7th Plague empties in the air. Rev.9:20-21; Rev.16:9-11.

Instead of repenting, the wicked "kill a third of mankind" and cross the Euphrates for the plains of Armageddon! That's when 100 verses in Revelation begin to be fulfilled on the DAY OF GOD'S AND THE LAMB'S WRATH. Rev.6:17.

This means that Rev.16:12-17 will be fulfilled just prior to Rev.6:12-17!
Understanding this order of events will bring UNITY among Believers.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

So-Called Pre-Wrath Rapture

I should have indicated that, with respect to unity of opinion on the time for the Rapture, Jesus anticipates that Believers will "know when the End is near". Matt.24:33. Pre-Trib adherents falsely assume that those who "know the End is near will also know the exact Day of the 2nd coming".

By stating that "no one can know the exact Day of His coming to gather
the elect from earth to heaven", Jesus indicated "that Day will be one of
the days immediately after great tribulation". Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29.

So instead of the Rapture being an "any-moment" event prior to the great tribulation, Jesus taught that it will be an "any-moment" event after the
Two Prophets "finish their 1260-day task and remain dead in a street of the city of Jerusalem for up to 3 1/2 days. Rev.11:7-11.

Prophetic Time ends "in the days just before the 7th Trumpet sounds" and God's wrath will occur on one of those (3 1/2) days cause "time will be no longer" subject to a countdown. Rev.10:6-7. The appointed time for God's wrath will have come because the Beast's armies will be "gathering to Armageddon" while the Two Prophets remain dead ... until the last believer "who must be killed has been killed". Rev.6:9-11.

These are the days of waiting when all believers will be in total UNITY as to the time for the Rapture and deliverance of Jews from God's wrath. I'm hoping that this UNITY of expectation will be understood even sooner because the "Day of the Lord" is a single 12-Hour-Day during which 100 verses in Revelation will be fulfilled.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

So-Called Pre-Wrath Rapture

_____________________________________________________________
My friend, you make some interesting observations! I wonder how you distinguish between believers and the Brethren.

I am striving for UNITY only on the question of when we will "know and be certain of the appointed time" for the Rapture as required by Rev.11:18.

Jesus says we will "know when that Day is near". Matt.24:33.
It will be near "in the days after great tribulation". Matt.24:15,21,29,36.

John reveals it will be near "in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound ... when chronos-time will be no longer" subject to a countdown ... while the Two Prophets remain dead in a street of the city of Jerusalem for up to 3 1/2 days! Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

We will know that Prophetic Time has ended when the Two Prophets are killed by the Beast and his armies are gathering to the Armageddon plains for the slaughter on the "great day of God Almighty"! Rev.16:12-17.

I see no way for the wrath of the "DAY of the Lord" to be any day other than that of the wrath of the "Day of God Almighty"! On that single Day all of 100 verses in the Book of Revelation will be fulfilled. That's the thesis
presented in my "Centerpiece" at www.lastday.net
Mel Miller :wavey:

 

So-Called Pre-Wrath Rapture

npetreley,

Thanks much. I too believe in the TRUE view of the Pre-Wrath Ratpure.

But the "so-called" unknown day for the "Pre-Trib Rapture" view is that
the Plagues are NOT part of the great tribulation. This view has no clue
as to when "we will know the end is near". They don't even agree among themselves as to whether the Trumpets are part of God's wrath.

Jesus states "we will know when the End is near" and justifies His this
fact in Revelation by showing the End comes "within the (3 1/2) days
between the killing of the Two Prophets and their resurrection on the
Day of the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet, the Last Trump, signals the "Day of Wrath has come"
and the "appointed time to judge and reward (Resurrect and Rapture) the dead" in Christ. The Pre-Wrath folks make the same error as the Pre-Trib folks. They assume the Day of the Lord is NOT a single 12-Hour Day!

I look for a day when there is no more "confusion" as to what Jesus
meant by the "Days of Wrath upon this people until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" and the "DAY of His Wrath during which none of the wicked will escape". Luke 21:22-24, 34-36; Rev.16:17; Rev.6:17.

I just can't accept that Jesus would lend His approval to any "doubt"
about the difference between "Day" and "Days"! Because that DAY
includes the sounding of the 7th, the Last Trump of Revelation!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

So-Called Pre-Wrath Rapture

Webdog,
I notice that once in a while you chip in as a Pre-Trib believer. Over a
month ago, on this matter, you wrote:

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
Pre trib for me. The Bible says we are not appointed unto wrath...God's or the antichrist. What is the purpose of the church going through the tribulation anyway? God's wrath for the church was taken out on Christ on the cross! The tribulation is for the jews.
______________________________________________________________

The Church will go thru the GREAT tribulation so that all believers caught up to meet the Lord may be counted "worthy" by their testimony that they are not ashamed of Christ and "love not their life unto death". Rev.12:10-11.

You are correct that "we (they) ARE NOT APPOINTED to God's wrath". But where does it say we (they) are not appointed to the wrath of Antichrist?

The "tribulation" has been "for the Jews" since AD 70 when a million of them
were killed or taken captive by the Romans. The tribulation (wrath) of those "days" will continue until Gentile times are finished. Luke 21:22-24.

I sense you equate "tribulation" with God's "wrath" and so escaping God's
wrath is equivalent to escaping the "tribulation". But then you assume that
we escape the tribulation (wrath) because of Christ's death on the Cross!!

I think you need to encompass the truth that "judgment must begin with
the household of God" ... especially since the sins of believers are not a
good testimony before the world! I suggest your comfort in deliverance
from wrath may have become an excuse for escaping tribulation. Jesus
"did not pray that we be delivered from tribulation; but from the evil one"!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

Pre-Wrath

Webdog,

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
I was referring to God's wrath and the antichrist's wrath. It can't be stated the antichrist's wrath is separate from God's.
_____________________________________________________________

My friend, they must be separated in my view because it is only God's
wrath that destroys the Antichrist on the Day Christ comes in glory.
If God's wrath occurred any time sooner than the last day, Antichrist
would be vanquished and cast into Hell.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net