When did the Church actually begin?

[Soulman]

Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
These are the words of Christ speaking about church disipline. The greek word ekklesia is used for church. This word means called out assembly. I don't think the church could have come into existance until after the veil was rent and there was the death of the testator. Could the church have existed while Christ walked the earth?

 

[Amy.G]

Pentacost.

 

[AresMan]

I believe Pentecost. I know that would get me a lot of flack from my IFB brethren. However, simply believing that the church began at Pentecost does not make me a Pentecostal or a charismatic.

I just believe that Jesus and His disciples were more of a "seminary" training ground or "Bible college" and Pentecost is where the church actually began.

 

[OldRegular]

The definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 is as follows [Section VI]:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

It would appear that the Church was instituted with the redemption of the first sinner!

 

[Salty]

11:00 am sharp

 

[TomVols]

Agree with Old Regular.

But really, we all know the church began with KJV, the Gaithers, and when fried chicken was invented :tongue3:

 

[Soulman]

But what about Matt.18? Jesus is talking church disipline. My question is: The church could not exist before the cross. He had to have risen first. Right?

 

[saturneptune]

11:00 am sharp

What is more important than when it starts is when it gets out. If the preacher speaks too long and the clock goes past 12, well, the Catlickers beat us to the restaurants, and we never get waited on. You never have to worry about the COC getting out before you. It seems like their regenerational baptisms last forever.

 

[Zenas]

The Christian church began at Pentacost. (Didn't we do this thread about a year ago?)

 

[saturneptune]

The Christian church began at Pentacost. (Didn't we do this thread about a year ago?)

You most certainly did. The differences of the church starting at Pentacost and when Christ told Peter he was the rock to found His church were discussed in depth, and no ones mind was changed.

 

[Allan]

The definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 is as follows [Section VI]:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

It would appear that the Church was instituted with the redemption of the first sinner!

Not true.

Remember, this was primarily written and adopted by Non-Calvinists who's view consists in the main the church started in the NT. Though some differ on time of on exactly when, it is still maintained by the majority that it did not begin in the OT. Again remember that the BFM is written in such a way so as to be more inclusive of some views but still maintianing the consistancy of the overall basic and commonly held theological position of the time.

Here is the BFM 2000 on the Church:

VI. The Church

A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.

The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Matthew 16:15-19; 18:15-20; Acts 2:41-42,47; 5:11-14; 6:3-6; 13:1-3; 14:23,27; 15:1-30; 16:5; 20:28; Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 3:16; 5:4-5; 7:17; 9:13-14; 12; Ephesians 1:22-23; 2:19-22; 3:8-11,21; 5:22-32; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:18; 1 Timothy 2:9-14; 3:1-15; 4:14; Hebrews 11:39-40; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Revelation 2-3; 21:2-3.

Again keep in mind that this document was crafted primarily (not exclusively) by Non-Calvinists who do not hold to a Covenant theological view nor the view that the church began prior to the NT.
Notice the the first paragraph defining the church starts out with 'baptized believers' associated by faith and the gospel and continues in that same vein. This is entirely a NT thing. This regards the present state of the CHurch. It is of not that they completely leave out Acts 7:38 (speaking of the church/assembly in the wilderness), which refers to the Jewish believers in the OT with Moses.

The last sentence IS stated in such a way that the Church is also stated in scripture to be all believers of all times.
Now what passages refer to this from those listed as references?
For those who are non-Covenant in their theological view, they are those who which speak to the event after Christ's return and/or Mill-reign, depending on your view, in which all become one. This sentence reflect or regards the future state of the Church.
I do realize the document does not 'specifically' state this point however what was writen prior to it and the current theological position of the majority both reflect this point, as do those some of the verses quoted for reference.
For a person to presume or assume that BFM 2000 on this point is, at this time, refering to the church as begining prior to the NT ignores the whole first paragraph.

 

[Revmitchell]

The definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 is as follows [Section VI]:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

It would appear that the Church was instituted with the redemption of the first sinner!

Now you know not everyone involved with putting that in the BF&M agree with your interpretation of that. This in no way negates any view that sees two separate economies for Israel and the NT church.

 

[Dr. Bob]

God's Word does not say WHEN the church began. In one of the first sermons of the early church we hear "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us" (Acts 7)

So the church WAS around in 1440 BC with Moses/Mt Sinai, according to God's Word. Still no date as to its origin.

It was given the indwelling of the holy Spirit as a special gift by the Lord promised to the disciples and given on Pentecost. But that is certainly not when it began.

 

[Tom Butler]

Jesus established his church during his earthly ministry. The band of twelve formed the material of the first church. It was already functioning by the time Pentecost arrived. It already had the ordinances, baptism and the Lord's Supper. We may trace the beginning to when Jesus completed the selection of the twelve.

It was empowered by Jesus himself. Jesus ordained the twelve, sent them out, sent out the seventy, preached and taught.

Matthew 16:18 says "I will build my church. " It does not say 'I will establish my church."

Matthew 18:17 assumes the existence of the church. His disciples understood exactly what he meant.

The Baptist Faith and Message is mistaken. When it speaks of "the redeemed of all ages" it confuses the "Church" with the kingdom.

The church is a local congregation. The kingdom includes all the subjects of the King.

 

[The Archangel]

God's Word does not say WHEN the church began. In one of the first sermons of the early church we hear "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us" (Acts 7)

So the church WAS around in 1440 BC with Moses/Mt Sinai, according to God's Word. Still no date as to its origin.

It was given the indwelling of the holy Spirit as a special gift by the Lord promised to the disciples and given on Pentecost. But that is certainly not when it began.

Dr. Bob,

This brings up a question in my mind. First, full disclosure: I don't fully subscribe to "Covenant Theology" as understood by most reformed theologians. I am, probably, much closer to New Covenant Theology, but I'm not firmly in that camp either. I'm somewhere in the middle.

I see you quote Stephen's speech with a translation of ekklesia as "Church." At this point, I neither agree nor disagree with your position and I am wondering why you take this word to be church rather than assembly or congregation, which, I think, would be a more contextually sensitive reading.

Again, not meaning to demean you position or pick a fight. I'm asking that you instruct me (and anyone else who cares to read).

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Allan]

I see you quote Stephen's speech with a translation of ekklesia as "Church." At this point, I neither agree nor disagree with your position and I am wondering why you take this word to be church rather than assembly or congregation, which, I think, would be a more contextually sensitive reading.

Again, not meaning to demean you position or pick a fight. I'm asking that you instruct me (and anyone else who cares to read).

Blessings,

The Archangel

This was a point I was responding to, then thought it might be considered demeaning (and that wasn't my intent) so I cancelled it. Thank you for asking that question, it sounds nicer coming from you

 

[The Archangel]

This was a point I was responding to, then thought it might be considered demeaning (and that wasn't my intent) so I cancelled it. Thank you for asking that question, it sounds nicer coming from you

Allan,

I find the translation to be peculiar. I don't disagree (fundamentally) with the idea of the "Church" being all true believers of all times (including Abram, Moses, David, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, etc.). My curiosity is an honest one...I'm not sure that I understand why that word would, contextually speaking, be translated as church when it seems more natural to translate it assembly.

Part of my challenge with the concept is that I have not read extensively on the subject of Covenant Theology claiming the Church was in the OT. I'm interested, I just haven't gotten around to it, although I am reading Michael Horton's "Intro to Covenant Theology."

Off to bed, finally.

Blessings to you!

The Archangel

 

[Allan]

Allan,

I find the translation to be peculiar. I don't disagree (fundamentally) with the idea of the "Church" being all true believers of all times (including Abram, Moses, David, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, etc.). My curiosity is an honest one...

And though I do disagree it, my question is of the same vein as yours and which you set forth in next portion of that paragrah:

I'm not sure that I understand why that word would, contextually speaking, be translated as church when it seems more natural to translate it assembly.

:thumbs:

Part of my challenge with the concept is that I have not read extensively on the subject of Covenant Theology claiming the Church was in the OT. I'm interested, I just haven't gotten around to it, although I am reading Michael Horton's "Intro to Covenant Theology."

I would say keep reading brother but also read some of those books that differ from your view You might find, like J. Macarthur, that the convenant view isn't.. well.. isn't all some think it is. But that is just our view from this side :tongue3:

Off to bed, finally.

Blessings to you!

The Archangel

You are blessed brother. Me, I'm still at work :laugh:

 

[Soulman]

I believe the church as it is today is N.T. The church is under grace. If we were to believe the church existed before Christs' sacrifice and you were a member per Johns baptisim of repentance, would you still have to go to the temple and have your yearly sacrifice performed?

 

[Johnv]

You most certainly did. The differences of the church starting at Pentacost and when Christ told Peter he was the rock to found His church were discussed in depth, and no ones mind was changed.

That's because the starting point of the church wasn't difinitive. At best, we can say that the Christian church movement was established by the time Pentecost occurred, but we can't say difinitively that the church didn't exist prior to Pentecost.