When Did the Church Start?

[mnw]

Welcome Poimen.

Hi there,

I think, despite our ideas on the nature of the church, that a plain reading and acceptance of the Scripture clearly indicates the church started in the earthly ministry of Christ.

First off, as has been alluded to already, He said He would be His church. He did not say the Holy Spirit would build it.

The answer to this is:

1. Christ said "I will build" the context and language make it clear Christ spoke of a future event.
2. Christ said repeatedly that He would send the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit should be looked upon as, may I say, the method by which Christ started His church.
3. The repeated references to the coming of the HS, John 17 and Acts 1 all indicate a change in the Holy Spirit's ministry. He would be doing something unknown in the Old Testament era.

I believe the OT actually prophesies this fact, as well as typifies the actual establishment.

Psalms 87:5b tells us the Lord himself would establish Zion. The Church is the true Sion/Zion of which Israel was a shadow.

The church is the temple of God, built, and continuing to be built/expanded, of which the OT temple was the shadow. We find reference to the house of God being established in the mountains in Isaiah 2:2 and Micah 4:1,2

Your reference to Psalm 87 I would have to disagree with. I cannot see that this refers to the New Testament church. Where do we make the link between Sion/Zion and the Church?

If the church is a continuation of something in the OT why did Christ not simply say, "I am building" or "I will continue to build..."?

I think the Scriptures mentioned here move into the covenant/dispensational discussion.

We see Jesus calling out and authorizing (the definition and function of ekklesia) the apostles -- setting them forth, an obvious organizational meeting, in a mountain in Mark 3:13-15

I see this as preparation. Over in Ephesians 2:20 it speaks of the apostles and prophets being used of God as a foundation for the church. I believe this simply means the teachings given to them by Christ were the foundation. So, for them to be used to teach others they had to be taught themselves. This, I believe, occured in the earthly ministry of Christ.

Psalms 72:16 seems to allude to this initial choosing of the apostles as well, designating them the handful of corn, who following the resurrection and the outpouring at Pentecost saw the city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, the church spread like wild fire, like grass of the earth.

Again, this reference seems shaky to me. I don't mean to attack you or your theology, well, maybe your theology... what I am trying to says is I am not looking to be offensive, I just can't see it in this passage.

As for referring to the City of God as the church I do not see that measures up with how the Bible describes it.

In Ephesians we are taught that the church is the bride of Christ. We find in the gospels Christ fulfilling the common customs related to picking an marrying a Jewish bride in his day. Per that analogy we are now in the period of espousal. Christ chose her, made a covenant with her, sealed it with the cup of covenant, and paid the purchased price for her with his won blood. He very well didn't choose, covenant, drink with, and purchase a non existing bride.

But surely that would mean the marriage supper of the Lamb spoken of as future in Revelation would be out of place, would it not?

We see it having it's first business meeting to replace Judas with Matthias prior to Pentecost as well.

May I ask if you cast lots as business meetings in your church? I actually think it would be a good system, no arguments, no discussions, just why the lot falls the decision is made!

I see it as the church being conceived in Israel, but born on Pentecost. It existed prior to Pentecost, in the womb of Israel.

Someone discussed this idea with me a few weeks ago, and it seems to say, with different words and in a round about way, that the church started at Pentecost. Saying it was concieved in Israel or with Christ just seems to merge the two ideas.

One of the best arguments for me is from Ephesians 1 where it speaks of Christ being the Head of the church, but He only took this position AFTER His resurrection and ascension.

Lastly, I Corinthians 12:13 speaks of us being baptised into one body, the church, by the Spirit. This did not occur until Pentecost. In Acts 1:5 Christ speaks of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a future event. However, Peter, in Acts 11:15 speaks of it as already having happened. Pentecost is the only time that fits as far as I can see.

I started this thread, and then left while it took off, so I am glad for the opportunity to get back into it, if only for a little while.

 

[Allan]

AMEN to that MNW, and again I say Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

Eph: 2
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

You will never do away with such scriptures as these.

 

[ituttut]

Hi there,

I am from a background almost identical in belief with the Pentecostal Free Will Baptists. I currently am independent. But I do not consider myself Baptist, though I am a baptist (lower case denoting belief in immersion).

I am however a born again believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You'll have to forgive me, after reading the first several pages I skipped most of this thread. I'm taking the chance that my comments will not be identical to another and worthy of consideration.:saint:

I think, despite our ideas on the nature of the church, that a plain reading and acceptance of the Scripture clearly indicates the church started in the earthly ministry of Christ.

Just got back on this thread so "Welcome Poimen" to "plain reading and acceptance of Scripture", as you say. Here is my understanding, and I had to go to my Apostle to understand the Word of God.

I believe when we stick to Who, When, Where, Why, What, and How, we can determine in what "dispensation" we are most interested in. Jesus said specifically, and precisely who it was He came for. I'm a Gentile, and not Israel so that left me out. Jesus lived in Old Testament times. He lived under the Law, with it Ordinances, and says until John were the Law & the Prophets. Jesus fulfilled Prophecy, and fulfilled the Law, and the law of ordinances.

So for me, I see the beginning "wilderness church" (Dr. Bob is correct), then to the earthly "Kingdom Church" of the Jew, which gospel is of John the Baptist "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand", Matthew 3:2. These "Churches" are in the "Kingdom of God" for they are "earthly" promised to Abraham.

Next I see the "rock", or foundation, that Peter and the Apostles are to build on and it is the foundation of Jesus Christ, and we find that gospel to God's people, Israel is the Pentecostal gospel for the Jew to preach to the world. Scripture says that gospel is the "great commission" we find in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and preached in Acts 2:38 to those men of Israel that asked what must we do, now today. This is the "Kingdom Church".

When we analyze this gospel, we find the Gentile is not really spoken to. John the Baptist spoke to no Gentile as to justification, and Jesus states He did not come for the uncircumcised Gentile, and the Apostles never preached justification of the Gentile, viz. our justification through faith. This justification through faith was unknown, for scripture tells us God had hidden this information from the beginning. Not until after Damascus Road did an Apostle present a certain gospel to a Gentile, and it was a "one time event" that Christ had Peter do as told in Acts 10.

The "church" beginning was in another "dispensation". In God's "dispensation" we live in today we have our own church offered. That is the "Body Church" of Christ Jesus in heaven. This "Body Church" of His was not known, until after "Damascus Road, just as also not known before - the "one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism," Ephesians 4:4-5. Acts 16 presents what gospel is "justified today". Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved. This is the grace commission by God through the faith of Jesus Christ who has done all of the work.

When did our Church begin? In Acts 13:2, "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them". The rest of the chapter gives further details.

First off, as has been alluded to already, He said He would be His church. He did not say the Holy Spirit would build it.

Amen, remembering Jesus is by seed of the Holy Spirit, and the Word of God became flesh.

I believe the OT actually prophesies this fact, as well as typifies the actual establishment.

Agree again, as to the Kingdom Church. The Body of Christ could not be revealed before its time.

Psalms 87:5b tells us the Lord himself would establish Zion. The Church is the true Sion/Zion of which Israel was a shadow.

The Kingdom Church.

The church is the temple of God, built, and continuing to be built/expanded, of which the OT temple was the shadow. We find reference to the house of God being established in the mountains in Isaiah 2:2 and Micah 4:1,2.

The Kingdom Church. We can't more Jewish than this. This is an "earthly church", a church of covenant that promises are made. God will keep His word to His people.

We see Jesus calling out and authorizing (the definition and function of ekklesia) the apostles -- setting them forth, an obvious organizational meeting, in a mountain in Mark 3:13-15.

Authorized in the Old Testament with the Old Testament gospel of "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins.

Psalms 72:16 seems to allude to this initial choosing of the apostles as well, designating them the handful of corn, who following the resurrection and the outpouring at Pentecost saw the city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, the church spread like wild fire, like grass of the earth.

This has to be for we know that God could not reveal the "Body Church", before its time. Ephesians 1:6-10, "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"

We are told today we can be of the "heavenly" in verse 3 (not quoted above), for we are circumcised and baptized without hands.

The "earthly" Church has its beginning in Genesis 17:8-10, "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

In Ephesians we are taught that the church is the bride of Christ. We find in the gospels Christ fulfilling the common customs related to picking an marrying a Jewish bride in his day. Per that analogy we are now in the period of espousal. Christ chose her, made a covenant with her, sealed it with the cup of covenant, and paid the purchased price for her with his won blood. He very well didn't choose, covenant, drink with, and purchase a non existing bride.

We are now in the "Body of Christ Church", i.e. the Bridegroom.

We see it having it's first business meeting to replace Judas with Matthias prior to Pentecost as well.

I see it as the church being conceived in Israel, but born on Pentecost. It existed prior to Pentecost, in the womb of Israel.

Yes, for Israel is His Wife.

I can see two Churches, and two Gospels. If we both "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, will both not be saved? I see a difference of "foundations we build on", in the "Kingdom of Christ Jesus."

 

[ituttut]

Eph: 2
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

You will never do away with such scriptures as these.

Amen Brother Bob. The "Kingdom Church", and the "Body Church". We are now also in His Kingdom for He made us so by the Grace of God the Father through His faith.

Paul shows the difference for we were never under the law of commandments contained in ordinances. Today we are told there is no difference between the Gentile and the Jew, for Christ has made in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Peter tells us "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they", Acts 15:11. We today are not supposed to aspire to be in the "Kingdom Church" for to me that gospel will lead into the "tribulation period", for no "Rapture" is associated with it.