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When you die...
- Thread starter tinytim
- Start date
Claudia_T said:
Oh of course you weren't, my mistake.
Okay I was thinking about this and I believe I figured it out hopefully... the thing is you can "fall away" like the Prodigal Son did but he "came to himself" and realized his father's love etc and so forth and came back to God so to speak...
But THIS passage is referring to someone who "falls away" in the sense that you reject, reject, reject the Holy Spirit's promptings till finally your heart is so hardened that you blaspheme the Holy Spirit and you are in such darkness then that it becomes impossible for you to ever come back.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
My belief about blaspheming the Holy Spirit is that you come to view what Satan says as coming from God and what God says as coming from Satan... and thus, God can no longer speak to you. You have hardened your heart beyond ever returning, like the people during Jesus' time who finally ended up crucifying Him. They truly thought that He "had a devil". and that he was a false prophet and so forth. and so they closed up any available avenue for God to speak to them anymore. and that is what it is referring to here in this passage when it talks about "falling away". It says you were "once partakers of the Holy Ghost"...
I had to go outside and take a walk in my huge backyard down by the grove of trees for that one, and think about it alot
anyway I dont know if anyone will agree with me but thats how I see it now.
But THIS passage is referring to someone who "falls away" in the sense that you reject, reject, reject the Holy Spirit's promptings till finally your heart is so hardened that you blaspheme the Holy Spirit and you are in such darkness then that it becomes impossible for you to ever come back.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
My belief about blaspheming the Holy Spirit is that you come to view what Satan says as coming from God and what God says as coming from Satan... and thus, God can no longer speak to you. You have hardened your heart beyond ever returning, like the people during Jesus' time who finally ended up crucifying Him. They truly thought that He "had a devil". and that he was a false prophet and so forth. and so they closed up any available avenue for God to speak to them anymore. and that is what it is referring to here in this passage when it talks about "falling away". It says you were "once partakers of the Holy Ghost"...
I had to go outside and take a walk in my huge backyard down by the grove of trees for that one, and think about it alot
anyway I dont know if anyone will agree with me but thats how I see it now.
Last edited by a moderator:
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Forget Seventh Day Advent religion. Let's focus on God's Word. I am impress with Claudia and BobRyan. I am not SDA, am baptist. I am realiuzed that baptist doctrine have lot of holes and errors. I notice all religions over the world have errors and holes. I mean EVERY religions have holes. THroughout years, the more I notice all religions have lot of errors of their doctrines. Why? They did not follow the Wo5d of God correctly. Colossians 2:8 warns us, do let any traditionof men spoil us of their own philosophy of teachings, stick upon God's Word.
Early in my Christian life, I thought Eternal Security doctrine is truth, because of what the baptist teaching. But, throughout years I read Bible, I can easy see conditions with warning in them. For example - receiving the mark of the beast - will be result of go to hell. That is condition salvation. Baptists sayong of Revelation chapter 13 cannot be apply to us, because we will be gone to heaven.
Also, baptists teaching two or three types of salvation. It is so called Dispensationalism. Hyper-Dispensationalism is more far worst than regular dispensationalism. Hyper-dispensationalism teaching different plans of salvation of the ages. Even, it teaches two or more of the gospels.
BobRyan did discuss about one or two gospels in other topic.
I believe there is the only ONE old same gospel from the beginning to the end.
Often, I hear argue about Grace vs. Law. I think many of baptists are misunderstanding what Claudia and BobRyan are trying to telling us about the grace. They DO believe we are saved by the grace.
I do not keep all 400 or 500 laws. I do eat pork ahahaha!! I do not pay attention to the topic about debate of eating pork. Debate on eating pork have do nothing with salvation.
Tinytim asking us, the important question- when we die, would we go to heaven.
When I was a student at an independent fundamental baptist college. I was in soul winning class. The common question of evangelism: "If you die today, would you go to heaven?"
There is so MUCH debate on salvation than anything.
Many baptists think Mormons, Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, Church of Christs, SDA, etc. are not saved, because of keeping good works. Early in my Christian life, I thought the same thing.
Later, I realized, they DO believe in Jesus same as what baptists believe, many DO follow Jesus Christ. We have to be careful when we judging them of their salvation. My family are Lutheran. Mom told me, she did accepted Jesus Christ as saviour, even, today she STILL believing in Jesus, and attend church faithfully. Even, she do devotionally daily. I do believe many Lutherans are truly Christians as baptists are.
A person gaven link of mormom discussion forum at baptistboard few days ago. I did read 'Baptist Evangelesm' at mormon discussion forum. Many mormons reject security salvation. They saying, they have to be endure their faith and follow Jesus Christ. I am amazing, none of them claim that they follow Joseph Smith, they all saying, they did follow Jesus. Huh?
Ok, let's discuss on Tinttim's question.
How about the parable of Matthew 25:1-13? I think this passage is a good illustration apply to us as every individual, that we ought always be ready for Christ's coming, or be ready all the times by the time we die. We do not know when we will die. We ought always be ready all the times no matter what happen to us.
I believe, Christ commands us, do NOT quench the light. Matthew 25:1-13 is a perfect apply to us, that we do not quench our fire or light, we must carry it all the way throughout our life till death or Lord comes. That means we must always walk in the light daily all the times, Or, what if we do not walk in the light right now. What happen to us? Christ shall catch us "sleep" in thief.
"Be watch and be ready" that is the matter of salvation! Not speak of reward of our works. It is speak of our salvation.
I realized the teaching of eternal security or salvation is dangerous. Because, too many people are taking "advantage" of God's grace. Romans 6:1-2 warn us, we do not be continue sin under the grace. God forbid.
I think, baptist churches, colleges are make money, while teaching on eternal security to the people. Eternal security doctrine is an itching ear unto people. People LOVE eternal security, that mean, they do NOT have to worry about their salvation, long as they still sinning daily, stay will go to heaven, they are still always saved.
So, verses telling us, that we are make sure that we do not falling away, keep God's Word and endure or steadfast all the times, and having assurance in Christ, it speak of having relationship with Christ daily throughout our life till death or Lord comes.
Later, I will discuss more with verses. Sorry forgiveme, I am already off the track. But, still I am discuss focus on salvation issue relate with Tinytim's question.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Early in my Christian life, I thought Eternal Security doctrine is truth, because of what the baptist teaching. But, throughout years I read Bible, I can easy see conditions with warning in them. For example - receiving the mark of the beast - will be result of go to hell. That is condition salvation. Baptists sayong of Revelation chapter 13 cannot be apply to us, because we will be gone to heaven.
Also, baptists teaching two or three types of salvation. It is so called Dispensationalism. Hyper-Dispensationalism is more far worst than regular dispensationalism. Hyper-dispensationalism teaching different plans of salvation of the ages. Even, it teaches two or more of the gospels.
BobRyan did discuss about one or two gospels in other topic.
I believe there is the only ONE old same gospel from the beginning to the end.
Often, I hear argue about Grace vs. Law. I think many of baptists are misunderstanding what Claudia and BobRyan are trying to telling us about the grace. They DO believe we are saved by the grace.
I do not keep all 400 or 500 laws. I do eat pork ahahaha!! I do not pay attention to the topic about debate of eating pork. Debate on eating pork have do nothing with salvation.
Tinytim asking us, the important question- when we die, would we go to heaven.
When I was a student at an independent fundamental baptist college. I was in soul winning class. The common question of evangelism: "If you die today, would you go to heaven?"
There is so MUCH debate on salvation than anything.
Many baptists think Mormons, Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, Church of Christs, SDA, etc. are not saved, because of keeping good works. Early in my Christian life, I thought the same thing.
Later, I realized, they DO believe in Jesus same as what baptists believe, many DO follow Jesus Christ. We have to be careful when we judging them of their salvation. My family are Lutheran. Mom told me, she did accepted Jesus Christ as saviour, even, today she STILL believing in Jesus, and attend church faithfully. Even, she do devotionally daily. I do believe many Lutherans are truly Christians as baptists are.
A person gaven link of mormom discussion forum at baptistboard few days ago. I did read 'Baptist Evangelesm' at mormon discussion forum. Many mormons reject security salvation. They saying, they have to be endure their faith and follow Jesus Christ. I am amazing, none of them claim that they follow Joseph Smith, they all saying, they did follow Jesus. Huh?
Ok, let's discuss on Tinttim's question.
How about the parable of Matthew 25:1-13? I think this passage is a good illustration apply to us as every individual, that we ought always be ready for Christ's coming, or be ready all the times by the time we die. We do not know when we will die. We ought always be ready all the times no matter what happen to us.
I believe, Christ commands us, do NOT quench the light. Matthew 25:1-13 is a perfect apply to us, that we do not quench our fire or light, we must carry it all the way throughout our life till death or Lord comes. That means we must always walk in the light daily all the times, Or, what if we do not walk in the light right now. What happen to us? Christ shall catch us "sleep" in thief.
"Be watch and be ready" that is the matter of salvation! Not speak of reward of our works. It is speak of our salvation.
I realized the teaching of eternal security or salvation is dangerous. Because, too many people are taking "advantage" of God's grace. Romans 6:1-2 warn us, we do not be continue sin under the grace. God forbid.
I think, baptist churches, colleges are make money, while teaching on eternal security to the people. Eternal security doctrine is an itching ear unto people. People LOVE eternal security, that mean, they do NOT have to worry about their salvation, long as they still sinning daily, stay will go to heaven, they are still always saved.
So, verses telling us, that we are make sure that we do not falling away, keep God's Word and endure or steadfast all the times, and having assurance in Christ, it speak of having relationship with Christ daily throughout our life till death or Lord comes.
Later, I will discuss more with verses. Sorry forgiveme, I am already off the track. But, still I am discuss focus on salvation issue relate with Tinytim's question.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Even, Lutherans, Methodists, and other religions DO believe we are saved by the grace. Myself was a Lutheran before. I know LUtheran doctrine well. I was in confirmation class. Pastor DID teaching us about the grace. None of Lutheran pastor emphasis to the congregation about keeping the laws.
See, so many baptists always accuse on Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, SAD, any religions about "good works". For example - Ephesians 2:8,9 is baptist's famous quote on grace.
Let you know, Lutherans DO believe in Ephesians 2:8-9 same as baptists do. I know Ephesians 2:8-9 well since I was kid in confirmation class at Lutheran school.
baptists include us and SDA people, have to be careful about judging people's salvation. Let God judge our salvation. I am aware that, in the Judgment Seat of Christ/Great White Throne Day, there will be many surprises, and shocks. For example, many baptists are expect that a well-known pastor or "godly" baptist is in the heaven, but, later find out that that person is not in the heaven.
Facing our name being finding in the Book of Life is NOT FUNNY!!!
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
See, so many baptists always accuse on Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, SAD, any religions about "good works". For example - Ephesians 2:8,9 is baptist's famous quote on grace.
Let you know, Lutherans DO believe in Ephesians 2:8-9 same as baptists do. I know Ephesians 2:8-9 well since I was kid in confirmation class at Lutheran school.
baptists include us and SDA people, have to be careful about judging people's salvation. Let God judge our salvation. I am aware that, in the Judgment Seat of Christ/Great White Throne Day, there will be many surprises, and shocks. For example, many baptists are expect that a well-known pastor or "godly" baptist is in the heaven, but, later find out that that person is not in the heaven.
Facing our name being finding in the Book of Life is NOT FUNNY!!!
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Claudia_T said:
Sorry, been in revival this week and haven't had much posting time. I will try to answer your and Bob's previous questions to me later but this really stood out when I saw it. Are you implying that when the Son went to a far away country, he was no longer the Son of the Father? Are you implying that had he never returned or had he died while in the far away country his Father would have disowned him or no longer acknowledged him as his child?
I have seen people use this portion of the parable for this position so I would like to address this up front;
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
The Son was dead and the Son was lost. I don't read this verse with an understanding that dead or lost means no longer belongs to the Father. I base my understanding on the complete series Jesus taught on being lost and not just this one verse. I believe to establish doctorine one must collectively consider all things taught on a given subject instead of taking one single verse and believing it is the complete message of Christ.
When the sheep was lost the owner went to look for him until he found him. He went as far as to leave the 90 and 9 which were now susceptible to attacks from wolve or bear and didn't know how to feed themselves and went after the one little lost sheep. When the coin was lost, the woman cleaned the house and searched everywhere until the lost coin was found. I don't believe lost or dead in this case means disowned or out of grace, it is a state one put's themself where even if you have strayed from the owner, you are astill not beyond the love and concern of the owner. My child can say I'm not her Daddy, but that makes her no less my child.
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Notice the father didn't wait for him to apologize or for him to plead his case, he saw him way off in a distance. A distance he seem to keep an eye toward, watching, knowing someday his son would return. Compare distance to an omnipresent God. And when he saw him, compassion was still in his heart. In other words, the Father lost no love, ownership or kinship even for his lost son. If this was judgement day, and this son saw the father, would the father have any less compassion?
We also know the son that left was not really the lost son. For the lost son was the one who stayed but could not find rejoicing in his heart for his Brothers return. The lost was the one who could not understand the fathers love for his son that went to a far away country. The lost was the one who could not understand, MERCY is compassion on the weak and not the obedience of the strong.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DeafPosttrib said:
Good point. The Word of God is what matters not the doctrines of men or the traditions of any one denomination. Either the teaching is in scripture or it is not. We must accept the same attitude Paul had for Timothy in 2Tim 3 "ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and is to be used for doctrine".
Who cares whether it is Baptists or SDAs that have it right - let's study the word to see what IS right and praise God for whoever may have it.
Well said sir!
Very true - as does Mark 7 where Christ said "in vain do they worship Me teaching for doctrine the commandents of men...setting aside the Word of God for the sake of your traditions and you do MANY such things as this".
So often man made traditions argue that warnings in scripture "should not apply to us" but we see them in Romans 11 "you to FEAR for if He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you".
In John 15 vs 1-10 the warning is given about those branches IN THE VINE of Christ who will be cast out and burned in fire.
Hint: that fire is not "purgatory" it is real hell fire in the Lake of Fire - second death.
Amen! Preach it brother.
Gal 1:6-9 "There is ONLY ONE Gospel" and Gal 3:7 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham".
Heb 4:1 "The Gospel was preached to US JUST as it was to them also"
True we are "Saved by Grace through Faith" but we are also "CREATED unto Good works that God has prepared beforehand that we should WALK IN THEM" Eph 2:8-10, for as John says in 1John 2:3-8 "the one who SAYS He knows Christ but does not walk as Christ walked is lying".
I do not claim that those who eat pork are not saved.
I do not claim that those who ignore the Sabbath are not saved.
I do not even claim that the RC practice of praying to the dead means that RC members are not saved.
"To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not to him it is sin"
Amen! Preach it!
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
LeBuick said:
Adam is called the "son of God" in the NT refering to the fact that God made him and no one can claim "Adam ceased to be God's man when he fell" Adam was still in fellowship with God in some way but he was ALSO under condemnation and needed salvation for REAL.
God so loved the LOST WORLD that He gave ... He does not cease to care about the family of God that is lost due to the fall of Adam. For this reason God creates the plan of salvation - which is the ONE AND ONLY Gospel -- "Preached to US JUST as it was to them also".
Notice that in Matt 18 - the story of "forgiveness revoked" shows how this lost-after-saved concept works as we also see it in john 15 and those taken OUT of the Vine of Christ.
in Christ,
Bob
LeBuick,
I didnt even comment on the prodigal son part of what I said, I dont know where you are getting all that from...
all I said was he "came to himself". thats it! thats what the Bible says.
Lk:15:17: And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
I didnt even comment on the prodigal son part of what I said, I dont know where you are getting all that from...
all I said was he "came to himself". thats it! thats what the Bible says.
Lk:15:17: And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
DeafPosttrib said:
So you saying we are not being judged by our actions? I ask because if we were, the people you mention above would have made it to the kingdom.
Perhaps God looks at our hearts. Can you imagine a man who pastors all his life but failed to first get his heart right with God? This should humble all of us back to the basics of just saying Lord I'm yours... Use me, in Thy service. I am merely a tool (workman) in your Divine hand. You are the Potter and I am the clay.
Sorry all, I guess I was repenting outloud...
Claudia_T said:
Sorry Sister for taking your post out of context.
Maybe this will help you understand my actions. We were in revival this week and my evangelist learned of his sisters death on Monday at around 4:30 pm. I told him to go take care of his family and ended up preaching this week. Ironic as it may sound, I spent this week dealing with lost. I'd fast and pray all day and the Lord really revealed to me some very good aspects of being lost.
Your post brought me back to Wednesday night when we dealt with the prodical son. As you can see, this week really touched me and when I saw that I just couldn't hold my peace... Please accept my apology.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
LeBuick said:
Agreed but that does not mean that Adam was not "really lost" and did not "really need saving". God loves the lost and the saved "God so loved the World that He gave...".
Adam did not cease to be loved by God when he fell and became condemned under the perfect Law of God that demands the suffering of the second death as the penalty for sin.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
LeBuick said:
James 2 "So Live and BEHAVE as those who ARE to be judged by the Law of Liberty"
2Cor 5:8-10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the DEEDS done in the body both good and evil".
In Dan 7 the BOOKS are opened as the court sits for judgment and the conclusion of that judgment in Dan 7:22 is "The Judgment was passed IN FAVOR of the saints".
Paul speaks to this same future judgment in Romans 2
"God is not partial... not the hearers but the DOERS of the Law WILL be JUSTified" Rom 2:13
Future judgment is objective not subjective - it is based on facts written in the books of heaven where deeds "both good and evil" are in review according to 2Cor 5.
But SALVATION is received by coming to God as a sinner in repentance and confession - not of works.j
Future judgment REVEALS what has been the case with each life.
In Christ,
Bob