Where in Scripture is...

[Frogman]

Where in Scripture is there given an altar call, either general or particular that was not given either to the Jewish people (Christ John 7) or only after a visible reaction by the audience. I mean where is it warranted for a preacher to prolong the service 30-45 mins. pleading and begging to deaf ears?

I believe this is a man made invention designed to excite emotion and please men, but do not believe it is pleasing to God.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Where in Scripture is there given an altar call, either general or particular that was not given either to the Jewish people (Christ John 7) or only after a visible reaction by the audience. I mean where is it warranted for a preacher to prolong the service 30-45 mins. pleading and begging to deaf ears?

I believe this is a man made invention designed to excite emotion and please men, but do not believe it is pleasing to God.

Bro. Dallas

As I recall, Paul, and other Disciples were noted for being long winded in their attempts to persuade their listeners to believe and thus be saved. I don't know of an Altar Call identified as such, but an altar call is an extension of persuasion.

 

[Harald]

You are right in that the altar call is a manmade invention. I have painful memories of the altar call. My dad was sadly tricked into a spurious conversion through the altar call a few years ago, in a charismatic Baptist meeting house. I was restless all the time as I beheld what took place at the front. Dad's life and conversation did not change, except that he became more religious in the sense of becoming very busy in all sorts of fleshly programs of the church, including the choir and attending all and every imaginable meeting the church organized. I confronted the so called board of elders about it. They answered that my dad was so old a man that it was difficult for God to change him anymore from what he was. Hogwash, was my thought inside. "He's just a bit carnal", was another patent answer of theirs. Today he is a hypocrite apostate who would like to give a show of piety, but rejects the plain precepts and "hard sayings" of the Bible. It is sad.

That is not the only reason for my rejecting the altar call as heretical. It finds no support whatsoever from the NT Scriptures. I have never been comfortable with it and will never be.

Harald

 

[Frogman]

As I recall from Scripture the Apostles were long in preaching the cross and the life, death and resurrection of Christ. I have not found where they performed such antics as having those who are lost to raise their hands, etc. the Bible records that they simply and plainly told those asking what they must do to repent and believe in Christ; but never do I find them parading any, lost or no before the church.

I believe this is just a means for men to 'justify' their ministry before men. I agree with Harald.

Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

I do wonder why people have the idea that there is more value to praying by kneeling at the base of an altar(really a stage) at the front of a building compared to praying in the pew where they sit or compared to praying at home or elsewhere.

I think that the only time one should go to the front of the church at the end of a service is in the case of having brought public reproach upon the church and the person wants to also publicly announce their repentance and grief over hurting the body of Christ in a public way.

The rest can be handled by talking with the pastor privately and then having anything that needs to be announced to the rest of the congregation handled by the pastor later at a worship service, such as announcing that God has saved someone or announcing that someone wishes to join the congregation in service to God.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
As I recall from Scripture the Apostles were long in preaching the cross and the life, death and resurrection of Christ. I have not found where they performed such antics as having those who are lost to raise their hands, etc. the Bible records that they simply and plainly told those asking what they must do to repent and believe in Christ; but never do I find them parading any, lost or no before the church.

I believe this is just a means for men to 'justify' their ministry before men. I agree with Harald.

Bro. Dallas

The Altar Call affords a first opportunity for new believers to confess Jesus before man! If we confess Jesus before man, he will confess us before the Father in heaven. It is more a witness of the change than it is the change itself. The change is spiritual, and no man has seen spirit, so physical manifestation begins with an altar call.

NO, an altar call is not essential to one's salvation.

 

[WonderingOne]

Someone can please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was a man named Charles Finney who introduced the "anxious bench" into worship services, which was a precursor to the altar call. Here is the url for some info concerning this,
http://capo.org/premise/95/march/horton-f.html

 

[Frogman]

The Altar Call affords a first opportunity for new believers to confess Jesus before man! If we confess Jesus before man, he will confess us before the Father in heaven. It is more a witness of the change than it is the change itself. The change is spiritual, and no man has seen spirit, so physical manifestation begins with an altar call.

NO, an altar call is not essential to one's salvation.

Does the confession validate the work in the heart, or the work in the heart validate the confession? If the former, does absence of the latter make the heart work performed by the Spirit untrue?

Confession or not, Jesus cannot deny himself.

Bro. Dallas

 

[romanbear]

Frogman;

Your right there is no alter call in the Bible. Now why don't you show what is wrong with it. Does it eat at your soul so much that you can't stand it, or do you just hate the Idea that one man might ask another to come to Christ and believe. Maybe it's the idea that any man would want to fulfill the calling of Christ by suggesting that men should come and repent and believe.
Romanbear

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by romanbear:
Frogman;

Your right there is no alter call in the Bible. Now why don't you show what is wrong with it. Does it eat at your soul so much that you can't stand it, or do you just hate the Idea that one man might ask another to come to Christ and believe. Maybe it's the idea that any man would want to fulfill the calling of Christ by suggesting that men should come and repent and believe.
Romanbear

I don't know how man can 'fulfill' what Christ has completed (in his words 'finished'). Thus what is not Biblical is not Biblical plain and simple.

This (the altar call) is not fulfilling the calling of Christ. It is trying to add to that calling something foriegn to scripture.

Bro. Dallas

I believe the order in Scripture is to believe and come to Christ.

 

[Yelsew]

I don't know how man can 'fulfill' what Christ has completed (in his words 'finished'). Thus what is not Biblical is not Biblical plain and simple.

If so simple, why do you not recognize that individual salvation is not finished until man submits of his own free will to the finished work of God?

This (the altar call) is not fulfilling the calling of Christ.

In the manner that crackers and grape juice are mere symbols of the reality of Christ's flesh and blood, the altar call is symbolic of the completion of God's work in man and man's submission of that completed work. and No, it is not adding anything to scriptures.

 

[KenH]

Here's another article on the heretical Charles Finney - www.gty.org/~phil/articles/finney.htm

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
why do you not recognize that individual salvation is not finished until man submits of his own free will to the finished work of God? [

That is impossible as man does not have a free will. Man only has free choice within his nature. After the Holy Spirit regenerates him then in his renewed nature he comes to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith.

 

[romanbear]

Hi Frogman;

When Christ said it is finished he was speaking of His sacrifice.

I wonder what is the purpose of witnessing to anyone when you believe as you do. You believe in predestination and unconditional election of everyone who is saved. So if they are preselected as you claim this would make spreading the gospel useless. Why tell anyone of Christ this would only to serve to mock God's sovereignty. If man is predestined then why even mention saving grace or have a church or a mission. I mean the chosen are chosen no matter what. It's all predestined you have no choice . For that matter why even have a Bible or worship God if you are already saved before the foundation of the world. What possible difference would it make, you are already chosen.

You can go out and sin all you want to, because you can't loose your salvation no matter what you do, even if you deny Christ.

I'm really curious why even come to Baptist board and talk about your doctrine everything is predestined. All those who are going to be in heaven are going to be there weather they want to or not. So whats your purpose in living doesn't the Bible say to die is gain.

I hope all this does sound to depressing, but it is all true of what calvinist describe.

Calvinism is fatalism just a puppet on a string. I really don't see a need for man to even have abstract thought when God has already solved all mans problems. What possible use would man have for a thinking ability.He doesn't have any decisions to make. What a bore life would really be if Calvinism were true.

Romanbear

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
why do you not recognize that individual salvation is not finished until man submits of his own free will to the finished work of God? [

That is impossible as man does not have a free will. Man only has free choice within his nature. After the Holy Spirit regenerates him then in his renewed nature he comes to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith. </font>[/QUOTE]That is simply not biblical!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by romanbear:
I wonder what is the purpose of witnessing to anyone when you believe as you do.

God has commanded us to do so and the gospel is the means that God uses to gather in His elect.

By the way, Calvinism is true. You just don't accept that fact. But at some point in the future you will.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
That is simply not biblical!

Yes, it is. And at some point in the future you will understand that it is true.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by romanbear:
Hi Frogman;

When Christ said it is finished he was speaking of His sacrifice.

I wonder what is the purpose of witnessing to anyone when you believe as you do. You believe in predestination and unconditional election of everyone who is saved. So if they are preselected as you claim this would make spreading the gospel useless. Why tell anyone of Christ this would only to serve to mock God's sovereignty. If man is predestined then why even mention saving grace or have a church or a mission. I mean the chosen are chosen no matter what. It's all predestined you have no choice . For that matter why even have a Bible or worship God if you are already saved before the foundation of the world. What possible difference would it make, you are already chosen.

You can go out and sin all you want to, because you can't loose your salvation no matter what you do, even if you deny Christ.

I'm really curious why even come to Baptist board and talk about your doctrine everything is predestined. All those who are going to be in heaven are going to be there weather they want to or not. So whats your purpose in living doesn't the Bible say to die is gain.

I hope all this does sound to depressing, but it is all true of what calvinist describe.

Calvinism is fatalism just a puppet on a string. I really don't see a need for man to even have abstract thought when God has already solved all mans problems. What possible use would man have for a thinking ability.He doesn't have any decisions to make. What a bore life would really be if Calvinism were true.

Romanbear

1. This finished sacrifice is the offering of Christ to God, God's gift to His people, and His people are God's gift to Christ for His sacrifice.

2. The purpose is that Christ has commanded this of us; and further for the feeding of the church, which is made up of individuals called out, regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, these then are called to be a peculiar people, and to Glorify their heavenly father, these are accomplished through the preaching of the Gospel and the doctrines found in the Word of God.

3. Don't you already sin all you want to? If you do this with pleasure then you are a bastard and not a child ( or so says the word of God). You can take it or leave it, I just speak as it is written.

4. I believe I was predestined to come here to the BB. So, in the due season...I came. Primarily though the purpose is to provide a witness among the people of God the truth of God's Word.

5. This is not depressing fatalism, because the Bible says all things work for the good of those who love God. How can free Grace depress anyone? Except this one has not the Spirit of God in him?

6. How depressing life would be if made had a choice to make from within the evil sinful lustful desire of his unregenerated heart.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I don't know how man can 'fulfill' what Christ has completed (in his words 'finished'). Thus what is not Biblical is not Biblical plain and simple.

If so simple, why do you not recognize that individual salvation is not finished until man submits of his own free will to the finished work of God?

This (the altar call) is not fulfilling the calling of Christ.

In the manner that crackers and grape juice are mere symbols of the reality of Christ's flesh and blood, the altar call is symbolic of the completion of God's work in man and man's submission of that completed work. and No, it is not adding anything to scriptures. </font>[/QUOTE]I believe man's own free will will be happy only to trodden underfoot the Grace of God as shed in the Blood of the Lamb.

I believe Christ's body is the altar--the place of judgement--coinciding with the altar of burnt sacrifice--the place where the sin of the world, and the elect is already judged.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Frogman,

Where in the Bible was there an 'altar call?' That's like asking where in the Bible is there record of a church building or a cathedral church building.

Let me assure you that an altar call was not started to create emotion. It was started to give a person a place to meet God. Do you have a problem with people having a place in a church building where they can find the Lord? Now don't get me wrong, although I was brought up in a home where an altar call was a fact and way of life, yet in my churches I never used an altar in the sense of someone making a commitment at the altar. At times people came forward to an altar to receive Holy Communion. People can find the Lord in any setting; therefore, an altar should not be off bounds to anyone.

I can clearly tell you that what hurts the Lord much more than an altar call is people who teach that only some sinners will be welcomed into His loving care. [Note John 5:24]