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Which comes first?
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
Could come either way.
Perhaps two places that might give help.
The conversion of Paul, and the conversion of the Philippian jailor are both given in some detail.
Let me state my own thinking.
Anyone who is truly a convert will first understand that the Lord is the Lord of salvation prior to them being converted.
Many will claim that the Lord is Lord, yet remain outside of the faith in an unconverted state.
Yet, none can be first saved and then the Lord becomes Lord.
Although, there are those that, after salvation, do sense an even greater need to make the Lord actually the master of all areas of their life and living, is that not also the work of the Holy Spirit that takes place as the normal growing evidenced in all believers?
The conversion of Paul, and the conversion of the Philippian jailor are both given in some detail.
Let me state my own thinking.
Anyone who is truly a convert will first understand that the Lord is the Lord of salvation prior to them being converted.
Many will claim that the Lord is Lord, yet remain outside of the faith in an unconverted state.
Yet, none can be first saved and then the Lord becomes Lord.
Although, there are those that, after salvation, do sense an even greater need to make the Lord actually the master of all areas of their life and living, is that not also the work of the Holy Spirit that takes place as the normal growing evidenced in all believers?
God Himself is the One doing both to/for the sinner!
The question then would be does God allow one to be saved that does not recognize His Son as Lord?
To Know jesus is to have Eternal Life, as that is found in the Son!
On the surface this sounds good.
However, my own sense is that I would rather my Lord know me.
For does not the Scriptures state that He says to those, "Depart, I never knew you," and what a terrible saying that would be to any who strive of their own intellect to know, or consider that their suffering in the flesh was an identifier, yet not come to terms with the claims of the Christ as Lord in salvation?
I think that none are ever saved who have not acknowledged Jesus is Lord....
In my opinion God moves from unbelief unto belief.
IMO Paul did not recognize Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of God.
IMO Paul was blind to the truth of God. Paul, the pharisee. Would he have been in Jerusalem on the Passover Jesus died? Did it require the Spirit of Truth for his blindness to be removed?
What did he then begin to preach?
Did Jesus move him from unbelief unto belief or did Paul move himself, thus?
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
At times, I have heard some say, “make Jesus lord of your life.”
Is that really a truthful statement of human ability?
Is not the believer to Humble themselves and as they humble themselves the Lord find the believer useful?
Should not the statement be, “Humble yourself before God, andin due time, He may exalt you?” (1 Peter 5)
Is that really a truthful statement of human ability?
Is not the believer to Humble themselves and as they humble themselves the Lord find the believer useful?
Should not the statement be, “Humble yourself before God, andin due time, He may exalt you?” (1 Peter 5)
What does it matter and does it actually matter?
There are those that would hold to either one must acknowledge at salvation the Lordship, or the othe side that one may after conversion become aware of the need to “make Him” Lord.
Would you consider that some stumble along in ignorance in which Paul redirected their thinking, but in our modern age, some others would seem to refuse the Lord on terms of having a life committed to Him in favor of some “He’s there whenever I desire,” thinking?
He is there 24/7 every moment.
I saw your post title and came by to tell you it was the chicken and not the egg.
But then I saw you are talking about something else!
Would you clarify what you mean by "the recognition of the Lord"? Do you mean recognizing that Jesus is the Lord? Thanks.
I didn’t want to be that specific so that folks could address either the growth to recognition or the recognition as inseparable from conversion.I saw your post title and came by to tell you it was the chicken and not the egg.
But then I saw you are talking about something else!
Would you clarify what you mean by "the recognition of the Lord"? Do you mean recognizing that Jesus is the Lord? Thanks.
In my own thinking, the true conversion is inseparable from the recognition of the Lord.
But, I am desirous to know others point of view.
Calvin's Institutes, first chapter, touches on our knowledge of self and out knowledge of God. That's a different subject, but it is helpful in answering the OP.
1. OUR wisdom, in so far as it ought to be deemed true and solid Wisdom, consists almost entirely of two parts: the knowledge of God and of ourselves. But as these are connected together by many ties, it is not easy to determine which of the two precedes and gives birth to the other. . .
2. On the other hand, it is evident that man never attains to a true self-knowledge until he have previously contemplated the face of God, and come down after such contemplation to look into himself. For (such is our innate pride) we always seem to ourselves just, and upright, and wise, and holy, until we are convinced, by clear evidence, of our injustice, vileness, folly, and impurity. Convinced, however, we are not, if we look to ourselves only, and not to the Lord also--He being the only standard by the application of which this conviction can be produced. . .
2. On the other hand, it is evident that man never attains to a true self-knowledge until he have previously contemplated the face of God, and come down after such contemplation to look into himself. For (such is our innate pride) we always seem to ourselves just, and upright, and wise, and holy, until we are convinced, by clear evidence, of our injustice, vileness, folly, and impurity. Convinced, however, we are not, if we look to ourselves only, and not to the Lord also--He being the only standard by the application of which this conviction can be produced. . .
