Which one is the Lordship Advocate?

I previously posted these under another thread but this is what I was really looking for. It was suprising to me to see some Lordship advocates say they were both wrong.

Now I will reveal that one of these two statements is from a famous early Protestant Lordship advocate(not MacArthur) and one is from a Catholic Theologian:

Which one goes with what group, and why is one statement wrong and one right? Is there any difference?


IFBReformer

 

I don't have the full context of either statements. I realize the importance of context many times to discussions. But the very fact that someone says "something more" than belief is required is a big alarm for me.

Sometimes a statement can stand all by itself. In fact I find many times Lordship advocates and Catholics making statements very similar to these, and then spending pages trying soften up their statements - their statements stand.

Do you believe something more than belief on Christ is required for salvation?

What more than belief did God require of Abraham to credit righteousness to him?

Is as one of the author's put it, our obedience and love combinded with our faith that gets us eternal life?

IFBReformer

 

I agree that one must appropriate Christ to himself and not just sinners in general. One must take Christ as HIS personal Lord and Savior to be saved, it must be believed in HIS heart.

But if you look at the first one's quote, he alludes to how one lives with belief. Both authors are similar in there connecting the life of obedience with faith, they just use different words, one says "combined" the other says "something more".

IFBReformer

 

"You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?" (James 2:19-20)

We can't know without the context but I'd guess that this is the point that the fellow was making. </font>[/QUOTE]Ok, I will reveal who they are, the first is
Arthur Pink.

A.W. Pink , as quoted by Iain H. Murray in The Life of Arthur W. Pink (Edinburgh: The Banner of Truth, 1982), pp. 248-249.

Here is a little more of what Arthur Pink said:

"…all faith does not save; yea, all faith in Christ does not save. Multitudes are deceived upon this vital matter. Thousands of those who sincerely believe that they have received Christ as their personal Savior and are resting on His finished work, are building upon a foundation of sand"
A.W. Pink, Studies on Saving Faith, www.reformed.org/books/pink.

And one last quote from Arthur Pink:

“Readers, if there is a reserve in your obedience, you are on your way to hell.”
A.W. Pink, Practical Christianity (Grand Rapids: Guardian, 1974), 16.


The second quote is from a Catholic theologian.

Demon faith does not involve believing in Christ as Savior, it is simply believing in the existance of God.

IFBReformer

 

It's more than that. The demons know without a doubt that God exists, and they tremble at the very thought, yet they refuse to obey Him. If we also refuse to obey Him then how is our faith any better than that of a demon? </font>[/QUOTE]Our faith is better than a demon inspite of our disobedience at many times because we obeyed the Gospel of Christ and believed on his name.

There is no doubt we should and are commanded to obey God, but our salvation is not based on or connected to our perfect or even inperfect obedience, but on the perfect obedience of Christ that is inputed to us because we believed.

IFBReformer

 

I agree with that completely, but where does the passage from James fit in? </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry it took me so long to respond.

James is talking of a dead faith, a faith with NO WORKS. If there is no fruit, there is no salvation. Having said that, some of my fellow brethen will take it a step further and say if the fruit it not a lot, and not just alot, but consistantly growing where a persons righteousness outweighs their sin then they prove they were never saved.

Thats where I and many other Christians disagree.

The other thing is this, while there must be change and we agree on that, our works and the fact of our righteousness outweighing our sin(or not in some cases) in our life cannot become the basis for our assurance of salvation - this is a critical disagreement I would have with Pink, MacArthur and even Spurgeon whom I admire.

IFBReformer
http://www.ifbreformation.org/Assurance_MacArthur.aspx

 

Just want to make clear for some who may be new believers or others listening in:

When the scriptures refer to us being a "new creation" it is speaking of the our Spirit being made alive, this is the part of us that hears the things of God and can discern Spriritual things. The newness refers to our ability now to hear the things of God, discern the things of God and the ability to obey righteousness now.

In fact in Romans it tells us what we were before were made a new creation:

So when we before we were saved, we had no choice but to obey our sinful nature. When we saved, God freed us from our old master of sin and we became slaves to righteousness.

However, can we still offer ourselves up to our old master of sin? Absolutely! Paul goes on to state this clearly to Christians he has just told are dead to sin and freed from sin:

Keeping the commandments of God are a righteous act, one that is commanded and not optional for Christians. However, we must be careful of basing our assurance on our subjective obedience to Christ. One moment we may be obeying Christ, and in another moment we are disobeying Christ.

Even the pattern of some Christians lives(sadly)is not the pattern of obedience it ought to be. But if we have believed, and we have seen the change in our lives, even if we have miserably failed God, our salvation is not based on our imperfect attempt to keep God's commands, but upon the perfect righteousness of Christ that was imputed to us the moment we believed in our heart on Christ.

Paul goes out of his way to show that Abraham's righteousness was credit to him before he did a single righteous act, it was an alien righteousness that was inputed to him, not based on anything he did, except have faith, and that was granted by God.

Was Abraham's faith proven before the eyes of men in acts he did after his belief - Yes - but this was not the grounds for, or assurance of his salvation.

Unbelievers live after the flesh, the flesh is the only thing they know, the driving force in their lives.

We who are believers, are the Spirit of God in us, and we are bent toward that Holy Spirit's call. That does not mean we do not have a daily battle with, losses to the flesh, because it still remains in us in these sin cursed bodies.

Paul states this clearly:

Paul spoke of the new desire he had to obey the things of God:

Remember what Paul said about the unbeliever, they do not seek after God,they do not desire to follow God, they are free from the control of righteousness, but you as believer now have a choice - but the reality is many times we loose the battle with our flesh, this was frustration Paul shared with us. It does not mean we always loose, but it does admit the reality of loss.

IFBReformer