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Who Appears at the Great White Throne?
- Thread starter James_Newman
- Start date
James_Newman
New Member
DHK said:Your wisdom is not always conventional.
In order to come to the wedding one had to have a "wedding garment," and if too poor it was provided for him by the master of the wedding. The fact that he didn't have it on is evidence that he deliberately rejected this gift of a wedding garment. This is the feast of a King. It is for the bride and the bridegroom. It is a wedding feast. It has nothing to do with the Kingdom, but takes place well before that. The wedding garment is symbolic of the righteousness of Jesus Christ, without which no one will enter into heaven and without which no one may be a part of the bride, Christ himself being the bridegroom. We, the bride, will take part of the wedding feast in Heaven. This takes place all before the Kingdom. Though there be time on earth, there is no time in heaven, or at least it is relative. This parable emphasizes the necessity of having the righteousness of Jesus Christ in order to be saved, or a part of the bride, and nothing more. Don't read more into the parable than Jesus is trying to teach. The parable only illustrates doctrine that is already taught. To teach doctrine out of a parable is to pervert the Word of God.
I'm sorry, brother DHK, but the parable I pasted is not anything to do with weddings and bridegrooms and wedding garments. But I appreciate that you don't believe Jesus was teaching anything with His parables.
tragic_pizza
New Member
That's quite a leap.James_Newman said:But I appreciate that you don't believe Jesus was teaching anything with His parables.
All the people who've ever lived will be in attendance at the great white throne judgment. Those that have already been judged after death(they're coming from hell) will be cast in the lake of fire.
And those who take place in the first resurrection(all the saved) will be there for the Scriptures say in first Thessalonians 4:17,"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." If we are ever to be with the Lord then the question becomes who is the judge at the great white throne judgment? If you come up with a name and that name is the Lord, and if we are ever to be with the Lord, guess what, all people who have ever lived will be the great white throne judgment.
And those who take place in the first resurrection(all the saved) will be there for the Scriptures say in first Thessalonians 4:17,"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." If we are ever to be with the Lord then the question becomes who is the judge at the great white throne judgment? If you come up with a name and that name is the Lord, and if we are ever to be with the Lord, guess what, all people who have ever lived will be the great white throne judgment.
James_Newman
New Member
J. Jump said:James I guess I for one don't understand completely what you are saying. Do you think that "all" Christians will stand before Christ on the day of judgment? And that the JSOC is different than the first resurrection? Please explain some more.
The judgment seat of Christ is the first resurrection, chronologically speaking. All believers will appear before it, regardless of their state (dead, alive, raptured, what have you) when Christ appears. The phrase 'have part in the first resurrection' doesn't speak of merely appearing at the judgment seat of Christ, but rather of being judged worthy of reigning with Christ. So one may be resurrected to appear at the judgment seat of Christ, and yet have no part in the first resurrection.
Okay I would agree with that, but what does the person who misses the 1,000-year kingdom have at the Great White Throne Judgment? Their works have already been tried. They don't have any more works left to judge, that I can tell. I guess that's the part that I don't understand.The judgment seat of Christ is the first resurrection, chronologically speaking. All believers will appear before it, regardless of their state (dead, alive, raptured, what have you) when Christ appears. The phrase 'have part in the first resurrection' doesn't speak of merely appearing at the judgment seat of Christ, but rather of being judged worthy of reigning with Christ. So one may be resurrected to appear at the judgment seat of Christ, and yet have no part in the first resurrection.
If a believer has been raptured (resurrected) to appear at the JSOC, there is no possible way that he can miss the MK. It is an impossibility. How can one go from the glories of Heaven, having been there for at least an earthly periond of seven years (but in realtiy there is no time in heaven), and then go into a "Baptist Purgatory" of flame and purnishment? Nowhere does the Bible teach this. Joey Faust's theology is the theology of a cult, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.J. Jump said:Okay I would agree with that, but what does the person who misses the 1,000-year kingdom have at the Great White Throne Judgment? Their works have already been tried. They don't have any more works left to judge, that I can tell. I guess that's the part that I don't understand.
Do you deny the omni-presence of God, or just the plain teaching of Scripture when it plainly says that the dead (meaning spiritually dead) will stand before God.mima said:All the people who've ever lived will be in attendance at the great white throne judgment. Those that have already been judged after death(they're coming from hell) will be cast in the lake of fire.
And those who take place in the first resurrection(all the saved) will be there for the Scriptures say in first Thessalonians 4:17,"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." If we are ever to be with the Lord then the question becomes who is the judge at the great white throne judgment? If you come up with a name and that name is the Lord, and if we are ever to be with the Lord, guess what, all people who have ever lived will be the great white throne judgment.
Perhaps since Christ is God, we should interpret it to mean that God is going to confine himself to the GWT and will not allow his presence to be anywere else in Heaven but there. And then there are those promises to conted with about going to heaven where there will be "no more tears." What kind of heaven did the Lord promise us?
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
The believers are the only ones who are in the first resurrection.
The believers will be like Christ when He appears, spotless, unblameable, for they shall see Him as He is.
The believers will be judged at the JSOC according to their works.
Crowns will be given to believers
Some believers will suffer loss, but not loss of the Kingdom as is being taught in this thread.
Believers saved 'so as by fire' not 'by fire'.
Believers will not spend the Millenial Kingdom apart from Christ.
Some would have Christ casting the Believers into hell or outer darkness for purging. But Christ has promised to never cast us away who come to Him.
The heretical doctrine (and it is heretical for it separates the Body of Christ) of Kingdom Exclusion is a lie
The believers will be like Christ when He appears, spotless, unblameable, for they shall see Him as He is.
The believers will be judged at the JSOC according to their works.
Crowns will be given to believers
Some believers will suffer loss, but not loss of the Kingdom as is being taught in this thread.
Believers saved 'so as by fire' not 'by fire'.
Believers will not spend the Millenial Kingdom apart from Christ.
Some would have Christ casting the Believers into hell or outer darkness for purging. But Christ has promised to never cast us away who come to Him.
The heretical doctrine (and it is heretical for it separates the Body of Christ) of Kingdom Exclusion is a lie
James_Newman
New Member
DHK said:If a believer has been raptured (resurrected) to appear at the JSOC, there is no possible way that he can miss the MK. It is an impossibility. How can one go from the glories of Heaven, having been there for at least an earthly periond of seven years (but in realtiy there is no time in heaven), and then go into a "Baptist Purgatory" of flame and purnishment? Nowhere does the Bible teach this. Joey Faust's theology is the theology of a cult, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
You still haven't explained how the servant that hid his talent is being examined along with the servants who put their talents to good use if the 1 talent servant isn't a believer. We all like to believe that when we appear at the judgment seat we are going to hear 'well done good and faithful servant' but how can we then deny that there is any possibility of being told we are a wicked and slothful servant?
James_Newman
New Member
His Blood Spoke My Name said:Believers saved 'so as by fire' not 'by fire'.
What do you think that means?
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
so as = like
It is not going to be a literal fire that saves the believers who built on wood hay and stubble.
But if one reads the verse carefully and prayerfully, one will receive the truth.
It is not the Believer that is being burned up, it is his works. His works during his life on earth. The Believer himself has been counted worthy of the Kingdom, for he took part in the first resurrection. What is burning the works is the very Word of God.
It is not going to be a literal fire that saves the believers who built on wood hay and stubble.
But if one reads the verse carefully and prayerfully, one will receive the truth.
It is not the Believer that is being burned up, it is his works. His works during his life on earth. The Believer himself has been counted worthy of the Kingdom, for he took part in the first resurrection. What is burning the works is the very Word of God.
James_Newman
New Member
How do you come up with like from so as? And even if it were, what is like saved by fire? Do the works get burned by literal fire?
Lacy Evans
New Member
His Blood Spoke My Name said:The heretical doctrine (and it is heretical for it separates the Body of Christ) of Kingdom Exclusion is a lie
It separates them in what way?
By rank? (ten cities, Five cities, few stripes, many stripes?)
By geographical location? (in the earth/on the earth - is that really a problem? It's all technically in the presence of an omnipresent God.)
Ps 139:8 -
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
By time periods?
The "body" has never been together in one, rank place, time or geographical location. I'm not sure I get your point.
Lacy
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
James,
Let me ask you a question.
If it were true that a believer could miss the Kingdom (be it hell or outer darkness) and you were one of those 'cast out', wouldn't you be ashamed that you did not please the Lord enough to be included in His Kingdom?
Let me ask you a question.
If it were true that a believer could miss the Kingdom (be it hell or outer darkness) and you were one of those 'cast out', wouldn't you be ashamed that you did not please the Lord enough to be included in His Kingdom?
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
Lacy Evans said:It separates them in what way?
By rank? (ten cities, Five cities, few stripes, many stripes?)
By geographical location? (in the earth/on the earth - is that really a problem? It's all technically in the presence of an omnipresent God.)
Ps 139:8 -
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
By time periods?
The "body" has never been together in one, rank place, time or geographical location. I'm not sure I get your point.
Lacy
Of course you don't get my point. Your mind is made up to believe those 'in Christ' can be cast out.
Way of Life Encyclopedia
JUDGMENT
All men must stand before God to be judged for their earthly lives. All such judgment has been given to Jesus Christ (Joh 5:22; Ac 17:30-31).
Just as there are different groups of resurrections for men, there are also different judgments. Before God, all men are not in the same position and are not grouped together for one general judgment. In a broad sense men are divided into the saved and the unsaved (1Jo 5:12,19; Joh 17:6-9). The Bible speaks also of three groupings of men in the world today: Jews, Gentiles, and the Church (1Co 10:32).
The N.T. speaks of at least three judgments.
THE JUDGMENT OF TRUE BELIEVERS (1Co 3:11-15; 2Co 5:9-10; Ro 14:10-12). The Purpose of this judgment. (1) It is for Christians, not the unsaved (1Co 3:1,11-12). (2) It is to examine the believer's service, not to determine his salvation (1Co 3:8,10,13). The believer is judged as a son and an heir (Ga 4:6-7). The Foundation for this judgment. The foundation is Jesus Christ and the eternal riches of Calvary (1Co 3:12). While the believer can fall on this Foundation; praise God, he cannot fall off! The Element of this judgment. The fire which shall try the believer's work is the Word of God (Jer 23:29; Joh 12:48). The Nature of this judgment. The believer's judgment is not for punishment, but to manifest his service for reward or loss of reward. It is the judgment of an Olympic athlete or the worker on the job or a son in the family business. The materials of this judgment. The "wood, hay, and stubble" are associated with man and that which is of the world, temporal. The gold, silver, and precious stones" denote that which is of God, that which has eternal value. We note that it is not the size of one's labor, but its value before God that is important. Some things which are "gold, silver, and precious stones"-faithful church membership (1Ti 3:15; Heb 10:25; 13:7,17); being a loving, providing husband (Eph 5:25; 1Ti 5:8); being a submissive, serving wife (Eph 5:22; Tit 2:4); being an obedient child (Eph 6:1); Gospel preaching and world evangelization (Mr 16:15); training children in the way of God (Pr 22:6); being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18); seeking God (Heb 11:6; Pr 8:34-35); sacrificing for Christ (Mr 10:29); approving excellent things (Php 1:10); being pure in spirit and body (2Co 7:1). The Loss of this judgment. The loss will NOT be salvation (1Co 3:15) or one's riches in Christ (1Pe 1:3-4; Ro 8:18; Col 3:4). The loss will be crowns; reigning positions (2Ti 2:12; Re 2:25-26; 3:21; 20:4). No one who appears at this judgment will lose salvation for poor service; he WILL lose rewards and suffer shame (1Co 3:15; 1Jo 2:28; 2Jo 1:8). Salvation is not gained through faithful service, but through faith in the blood of Christ (Ro 3:1-4; Eph 2:8-9). For the Christian, the judgment of God's wrath upon his sin is forever past. It was poured out upon the Savior on Calvary (Joh 3:18,36). The Grace of this judgment. It is God's nature to be gracious (Ps 103:8-14), and His marvelous, free grace in Jesus Christ will be manifest in the believer's judgment. "In the counsels of God I am elect before the foundation of the world; hence I think that my own history will be detailed before the judgment seat, and, parallel with it, the history of the grace and of the mercy of God toward me. The why and the how we did this or that will be manifested then. For us the scene will be declarative, not judicial. We are not in the flesh before God; in His eyes, by His grace, we are dead. But then, if we have walked according to the flesh, we must see how we lost in blessing thereby, and what loss we have incurred. On the other hand, the ways of God towards us, all ways of wisdom, of mercy, and of grace, will be perfectly known and understood by us for the first time" (J.N. Darby). The Motivation of this judgment. The Judgment Seat of Christ is one of the greatest motivators in the Christian life. It should motivate the Christian to be spiritual (1Co 3:1-3), to be busy (1Co 3:9-10), and to be faithful (1Co 4:2-4).
THE JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS. This occurs at Christ's return (Mt 25:31-46). The King will judge the nations living at that time to determine which of them will enter Christ's kingdom.
THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT. This occurs just prior to the establishment of the new heaven and new earth (Re 20:11-15). Only the unsaved are resurrected to this judgment. The saved will already have been resurrected and will be reigning with Christ (Re 20:1-5). This judgment is a judgment of works (Re 20:12-13). Since all men's works are sinful before God, and since these wicked dead did not receive Jesus Christ as their Savior from sin during their earthly lives, they will be judged and suffer eternal punishment for their evil deeds and rejection of God's salvation.
JUDGMENT
All men must stand before God to be judged for their earthly lives. All such judgment has been given to Jesus Christ (Joh 5:22; Ac 17:30-31).
Just as there are different groups of resurrections for men, there are also different judgments. Before God, all men are not in the same position and are not grouped together for one general judgment. In a broad sense men are divided into the saved and the unsaved (1Jo 5:12,19; Joh 17:6-9). The Bible speaks also of three groupings of men in the world today: Jews, Gentiles, and the Church (1Co 10:32).
The N.T. speaks of at least three judgments.
THE JUDGMENT OF TRUE BELIEVERS (1Co 3:11-15; 2Co 5:9-10; Ro 14:10-12). The Purpose of this judgment. (1) It is for Christians, not the unsaved (1Co 3:1,11-12). (2) It is to examine the believer's service, not to determine his salvation (1Co 3:8,10,13). The believer is judged as a son and an heir (Ga 4:6-7). The Foundation for this judgment. The foundation is Jesus Christ and the eternal riches of Calvary (1Co 3:12). While the believer can fall on this Foundation; praise God, he cannot fall off! The Element of this judgment. The fire which shall try the believer's work is the Word of God (Jer 23:29; Joh 12:48). The Nature of this judgment. The believer's judgment is not for punishment, but to manifest his service for reward or loss of reward. It is the judgment of an Olympic athlete or the worker on the job or a son in the family business. The materials of this judgment. The "wood, hay, and stubble" are associated with man and that which is of the world, temporal. The gold, silver, and precious stones" denote that which is of God, that which has eternal value. We note that it is not the size of one's labor, but its value before God that is important. Some things which are "gold, silver, and precious stones"-faithful church membership (1Ti 3:15; Heb 10:25; 13:7,17); being a loving, providing husband (Eph 5:25; 1Ti 5:8); being a submissive, serving wife (Eph 5:22; Tit 2:4); being an obedient child (Eph 6:1); Gospel preaching and world evangelization (Mr 16:15); training children in the way of God (Pr 22:6); being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18); seeking God (Heb 11:6; Pr 8:34-35); sacrificing for Christ (Mr 10:29); approving excellent things (Php 1:10); being pure in spirit and body (2Co 7:1). The Loss of this judgment. The loss will NOT be salvation (1Co 3:15) or one's riches in Christ (1Pe 1:3-4; Ro 8:18; Col 3:4). The loss will be crowns; reigning positions (2Ti 2:12; Re 2:25-26; 3:21; 20:4). No one who appears at this judgment will lose salvation for poor service; he WILL lose rewards and suffer shame (1Co 3:15; 1Jo 2:28; 2Jo 1:8). Salvation is not gained through faithful service, but through faith in the blood of Christ (Ro 3:1-4; Eph 2:8-9). For the Christian, the judgment of God's wrath upon his sin is forever past. It was poured out upon the Savior on Calvary (Joh 3:18,36). The Grace of this judgment. It is God's nature to be gracious (Ps 103:8-14), and His marvelous, free grace in Jesus Christ will be manifest in the believer's judgment. "In the counsels of God I am elect before the foundation of the world; hence I think that my own history will be detailed before the judgment seat, and, parallel with it, the history of the grace and of the mercy of God toward me. The why and the how we did this or that will be manifested then. For us the scene will be declarative, not judicial. We are not in the flesh before God; in His eyes, by His grace, we are dead. But then, if we have walked according to the flesh, we must see how we lost in blessing thereby, and what loss we have incurred. On the other hand, the ways of God towards us, all ways of wisdom, of mercy, and of grace, will be perfectly known and understood by us for the first time" (J.N. Darby). The Motivation of this judgment. The Judgment Seat of Christ is one of the greatest motivators in the Christian life. It should motivate the Christian to be spiritual (1Co 3:1-3), to be busy (1Co 3:9-10), and to be faithful (1Co 4:2-4).
THE JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS. This occurs at Christ's return (Mt 25:31-46). The King will judge the nations living at that time to determine which of them will enter Christ's kingdom.
THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT. This occurs just prior to the establishment of the new heaven and new earth (Re 20:11-15). Only the unsaved are resurrected to this judgment. The saved will already have been resurrected and will be reigning with Christ (Re 20:1-5). This judgment is a judgment of works (Re 20:12-13). Since all men's works are sinful before God, and since these wicked dead did not receive Jesus Christ as their Savior from sin during their earthly lives, they will be judged and suffer eternal punishment for their evil deeds and rejection of God's salvation.
James_Newman
New Member
His Blood Spoke My Name said:James,
Let me ask you a question.
If it were true that a believer could miss the Kingdom (be it hell or outer darkness) and you were one of those 'cast out', wouldn't you be ashamed that you did not please the Lord enough to be included in His Kingdom?
Is this where you try to argue that being ashamed is 'like' being saved by fire?
Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
Is this talking about shame? Or does the breath of the Lord literally kindle this fire? Would I be ashamed? Assuredly, and I may yet.
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Corinthians 9:27)
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Things Hard To Be Understood: 1 Cor. 9:27
The context here is not Paul’s salvation, but his Christian service. Paul was concerned that he would be castaway in the sense that he would be put on a shelf in this life or that his service would be rejected or disapproved at the judgment seat of Christ. The same Greek word is translated “rejected.” Paul was not afraid that he would be lost. He testified that he knew Christ would keep him (2Ti 1:12). What he feared was falling short of God’s high calling for his life. The context makes this plain. He is talking about running a race and winning a prize. To confuse this passage with salvation is to misunderstand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not a reward for faithful service. The Bible plainly states that salvation is by grace, and grace is the free, unmerited mercy of God (Eph 2:8-9). Anything that is merited or rewarded, is not grace (Ro 11:6). On the other hand, after we are saved by the marvelous grace of God, we are called to serve Jesus Christ. We are created in Christ Jesus “unto good works” (Eph 2:10). If a Christian is lazy and carnal, he will be chastened by the Lord (Heb 12:6-8), and if he does not respond, God will take him home (Ro 8:13; 1Co 11:30; 1Jo 5:16).
---------------------------------------------------------
Things Hard To Be Understood: 1 Cor. 9:27
The context here is not Paul’s salvation, but his Christian service. Paul was concerned that he would be castaway in the sense that he would be put on a shelf in this life or that his service would be rejected or disapproved at the judgment seat of Christ. The same Greek word is translated “rejected.” Paul was not afraid that he would be lost. He testified that he knew Christ would keep him (2Ti 1:12). What he feared was falling short of God’s high calling for his life. The context makes this plain. He is talking about running a race and winning a prize. To confuse this passage with salvation is to misunderstand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not a reward for faithful service. The Bible plainly states that salvation is by grace, and grace is the free, unmerited mercy of God (Eph 2:8-9). Anything that is merited or rewarded, is not grace (Ro 11:6). On the other hand, after we are saved by the marvelous grace of God, we are called to serve Jesus Christ. We are created in Christ Jesus “unto good works” (Eph 2:10). If a Christian is lazy and carnal, he will be chastened by the Lord (Heb 12:6-8), and if he does not respond, God will take him home (Ro 8:13; 1Co 11:30; 1Jo 5:16).