Who Appears at the Great White Throne?

[J. Jump]

I mean those folks that are saved eternally (get to the starting line), but never produce fruit. Do they just get to rule and reign with Christ despite not showing themselves approved in the here and now?

And if that is true what is the motivation to produce fruit? If everyone that is saved gets to rule and reign with Christ whether they are obedient or disobedient why can't I enjoy all this world has to offer now? Why do I have to deny myself and take up my cross daily if that really doesn't matter?

 

[ccdnt]

That passage is speaking of Christian service, not eternal salvation. The entire illustration of one training as an althelete is comparable for one in training as a good soldier of Jesus Christ, that is for service for our King. It has nothing to do with losing one's salvation. If you are not fit to run, you won't run. But you won't be kicked out of the family either.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God. It is his love that keeps us. It is his grace that keeps us. And it is He that will keep us from the GWT.

I agree. There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God. God even loves the unbeliever. Nothing the unbeliever does or does not do will change that. I am very familiar with the arguments put forth by those that believe in OSAS so you giving these verses is no suprise. I used to believe in OSAS myself.

 

[webdog]

They well get what they deserve to get. There will be many positions to fill. I have no idea what specific positions they will have. The Bible says some are put over 10 cities, some over 5 cities, etc. We won't know the specifics until that day.

This is what doesn't make any sense. If you have a group of 10 runners, one wins the race and the others place behind them. The ones who don't win the race don't get punished, or have to pay anything because they didn't win...they just don't win the prize. It seems like you are stating those who don't win are severely punished, and I have never seen a race like that. Disappointed, maybe, but never physically punished.

I don't know of any business owner that would put a disobedient, unfaithful person in charge of their affairs. Those people get fired or never hired in the first place.

The bolded I agree with. Those who don't rule with Christ are not banished from the "business"...they just don't get the "job". If I'm a bad candidate for a job, after the interview does the business owner put me in prison...or do I only not get the job? Am I banished from the owner's business for life if I don't get the job?

Yet Christendom thinks that folks can be disobedient, unfaithful, non-overcomers and will still have a position within the perfect kingdom of Christ. That just doesn't make an ounce of sense.

I'm sorry, but what doesn't make sense is the fact those who don't get the job are therefore banished from the business. If only a handful of people are hired by the owner...and the rest banished from the business, the business would die as there would be no customers allowed within except those hired. This is silly.

 

[J. Jump]

If you have a group of 10 runners, one wins the race and the others place behind them. The ones who don't win the race don't get punished, or have to pay anything because they didn't win...they just don't win the prize. It seems like you are stating those who don't win are severely punished, and I have never seen a race like that. Disappointed, maybe, but never physically punished.

No . . . if you "finish" the race and have run it properly then you receive a prize. If you finish the race and don't run it properly then you do not receive a prize and yes you can be punished. Just ask those Olympians who have been banned or stripped of their medals.

Those who don't rule with Christ are not banished from the "business"

Never said they were. In an eternal sense those that do not rule and reign in the 1000 years will be established into the kingdom when eternity begins for each of us.

I'm sorry, but what doesn't make sense is the fact those who don't get the job are therefore banished from the business.

Again those are your words. I never said that. And yes that is not true. They are never banished in an eternal sense from the business/family whatever you want to call it. For disobedient, non-overcoming, unfaithful Christians there will be a time of discipline (some call it punishment, but it's really discipline of a loving Father) and there will be a time of restoration.

If only a handful of people are hired by the owner...and the rest banished from the business, the business would die as there would be no customers allowed within except those hired. This is silly.

That is silly. I'm glad I never said it

 

[webdog]

No . . . if you "finish" the race and have run it properly then you receive a prize. If you finish the race and don't run it properly then you do not receive a prize and yes you can be punished. Just ask those Olympians who have been banned or stripped of their medals.

Apples and oranges. Those who have their medals stripped are done so because they broke the rules...not because of where they placed. There has NEVER been a person in any race to get punished solely on where they placed. They didn't win...yes...but they were never punished for it.

They are never banished in an eternal sense from the business/family whatever you want to call it. For disobedient, non-overcoming, unfaithful Christians there will be a time of discipline (some call it punishment, but it's really discipline of a loving Father) and there will be a time of restoration.

They are never banished in any sense. Your business analogy would have those who aren't hired banished from the business for a period of time before they are allowed in....solely on the fact they weren't hired. Ridiculous.

That is silly. I'm glad I never said it

You don't have to "say something" to say something.

 

[J. Jump]

Apples and oranges. Those who have their medals stripped are done so because they broke the rules...not because of where they placed. There has NEVER been a person in any race to get punished solely on where they placed. They didn't win...yes...but they were never punished for it.

Webdog you keep responding to stuff that I didn't say. I never said that anyone that placed in the race that ran by the rules got punished. It won't happen. If you run the race of the faith, and you finish and you have ran by the rules you will not be punished or disciplined. You will hear well done thy good and faithful servant.

It is only those that don't run, or run not according to the rules that will be disciplined.

They are never banished in any sense.

Well you are certainly welcome to that opinion, but Scripture tells us otherwise. And you can call it ridiculous or whatever you want to call it, but it doesn't make it any less True.

You don't have to "say something" to say something.

While I agree with that statement, you are wrong in your case, because again I have told you that I don't agree with you, and based on what I have said that is a false accusation. But that's sorta your mo unfortunately, at least when it comes to me.

I thought we were going to be able to have a civil conversation without any of your false accusations, but I see that may not be possible.

Just stick with what I say. If you need clarification I will clarify for you, but don't put words into my mouth that simply aren't there or even implied for that matter!

 

[DHK]

I mean those folks that are saved eternally (get to the starting line), but never produce fruit. Do they just get to rule and reign with Christ despite not showing themselves approved in the here and now?

And if that is true what is the motivation to produce fruit? If everyone that is saved gets to rule and reign with Christ whether they are obedient or disobedient why can't I enjoy all this world has to offer now? Why do I have to deny myself and take up my cross daily if that really doesn't matter?

I believe your conjectures are foolish which Paul told Timothy to stay away from. When you start with a false premise your entire syllogism will be false. So what is the use of even trying to answer something that has started on the wrong foot.

1. As I have said many times before there is no such thing as one who "is not really saved."
2. There is the lost and the saved; there is no inbetween position. You decide which group you belong to.
3. A saved individual will be a changed individual. He will produce fruit in his life. There will be change in a believer's life however little it may be. There was fruit in the life of the thief on the cross. He stopped reviling the Lord Jesus Christ. He rebuked the other thief. He admitted he deserved his "just condemnation." He called on Christ to remember him. His life was changed then what it was just an hour before that time. There is change in a believer's life which we call fruit.
4. A person with no change, no fruit, is not saved. So why start with a false premise?
5. Having said that, you are not to judge. You are not the judge of the hearts of mankind. You cannot set yourself up in the place of God and peer into the hearts of man. Oftentimes there is fruit that we cannot see. But God sees the heart. We don't know all the circustances. "Who are you to judge another man's servant?"

Paul takes your philosopy and totally demolishes it in Scripture:
You need to read:

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

You seem to have the same antinomian philosophy of the Romans. Get saved, sin all you want, because the more you sin the more grace will abound. Paul put a stop to that foolishness. We are saved for all eternity. But a saved person has a changed life. Is there a change in your life since you have been saved? What brought about that change?

 

[Lacy Evans]

You seem to have the same antinomian philosophy of the Romans. Get saved, sin all you want, because the more you sin the more grace will abound. Paul put a stop to that foolishness. We are saved for all eternity. But a saved person has a changed life. Is there a change in your life since you have been saved? What brought about that change?

Quite the contrary, DHK. To believe that God can send his children to a 1000 year "time out" in the burning heart of the earth is hardly "Get saved, sin all you want!"

It's more like, "Get saved, you still have a free will, sin all you 'want,' but know that God is not mocked and a man(Christian) will reap what he sows."

I only see, really, only a few choices.

1) we have to be good enough to get saved.
2) We have to be good enough to stay saved.
3) we have to be good enough to prove we are saved.

4) We can't ever be good enough so Christ took our place and we cannot undo it. (OSAS)
4a) We are OSAS but God will chasten us in this life only if we are disobedient.
4c) We are OSAS but God will chasten us in either this life or the next.


If there are other choices, I am willing to listen. Your last post seems to be leaning toward #3. I believe 1-3 are all essentially the same when they are logically thought out.

Lacy

 

[webdog]

Webdog you keep responding to stuff that I didn't say. I never said that anyone that placed in the race that ran by the rules got punished. It won't happen. If you run the race of the faith, and you finish and you have ran by the rules you will not be punished or disciplined. You will hear well done thy good and faithful servant.

So...if you don't "finish" the race, it means you were never in the race? If you don't "finish" the race, you are then punished? Again, please show any race throughout history that the participants were punished for not finishing a race. Even if you don't finish a race, you still place.

It is only those that don't run, or run not according to the rules that will be disciplined.

That's crazy. There has never been a person to be punished for not finishing a race. Punished for breaking the rules, but not for the sole act of not running. Maybe the entry fee is not refunded, (this could be deemed suffering loss), but nobody is punished.

I thought we were going to be able to have a civil conversation without any of your false accusations, but I see that may not be possible.

Please quit playing this card, it's well played out already. I don't really have the time to keep posting exact quotes from you. Here's one, though. Tell me how I misrepresented you...

YOU: If you finish the race and don't run it properly then you do not receive a prize and yes you can be punished.

ME: Those who have their medals stripped are done so because they broke the rules...not because of where they placed.

YOU: Webdog you keep responding to stuff that I didn't say. I never said that anyone that placed in the race that ran by the rules got punished. It won't happen.

IF you finish a race...you place, period. If you finish a race, and don't follow the rules, you are disqualified from the race, but you are never punished above and beyond that.

 

[J. Jump]

You seem to have the same antinomian philosophy of the Romans. Get saved, sin all you want, because the more you sin the more grace will abound.

I see you are using the Webdog mo. You will not be able to find a single post on here where I say that it is okay to sin and that we should actually sin. I will agree with Paul that is foolishness. Now please in the future deal with what I say please.

Let me make this ABUNDANTLY clear again. We are not saved and then free to sin. There are penalties and consequences for sin. Sometimes these can even be extremely severe in nature. We are no longer slaves to sin. That doesn't mean we "won't" be slaves to sin. It simply means we don't have to be slaves to sin any longer.

Can a Christian sin. Yes. Can a Christian revert back to a lifestyle of sin. Yes. Will they be rewarded with a place in the kingdom of Christ as some Christians think. No.

I believe your conjectures are foolish

Well as I have said to many others you are certainly more than welcome to that opinion. But that's all it is.

1. As I have said many times before there is no such thing as one who "is not really saved."

In speaking of eternal salvation that is absolutely true. And I have always agreed with that statement. You are either saved or you are unsaved. No other option.

2. There is the lost and the saved; there is no inbetween position. You decide which group you belong to.

Actually here is part of the problem. There is not lost and saved. There is unsaved and saved. Lost does not equate to unsaved. There is nowhere in Scripture that makes that connection. If so please give me some examples.

3. A saved individual will be a changed individual.

I agree with the statement, but not in the way you use it based on your following statements. A saved person is changed in that they are no longer male or female, Jew or Greek. They are simply a part of the one new man in Christ. They are a new nation. It doesn't have anything to do with a changed lifestyle.

He will produce fruit in his life. There will be change in a believer's life however little it may be.

That just simply isn't true. There is no Scripture to back that up. All that is is a backloaded works doctrine that keep people from moving on because they are constantly worried if they are doing the right things and if they are doing enough of the right things. It's a works-based salvation that just puts the works on the back end of the equation.

If you put works in the grace by faith equation mistakes will ALWAYS be made. Works are NEVER in that equation, prior to, during or after. NEVER. Apart from works, means apart from works.

4. A person with no change, no fruit, is not saved. So why start with a false premise?

Well I would ask you the same question. That's not what Scripture says, so why start with a false premise?

5. Having said that, you are not to judge. You are not the judge of the hearts of mankind. You cannot set yourself up in the place of God and peer into the hearts of man. Oftentimes there is fruit that we cannot see. But God sees the heart. We don't know all the circustances. "Who are you to judge another man's servant?"

Again another accusation that is baseless. Please tell me where I have judged anyone. I have made no statements about anyone's fruit or lack there of. I have made general statements about Christians who do produce fruits and who do not. Again if you want to accuse then please provide evidence along with the accusation or don't accuse.

 

[DHK]

I only see, really, only a few choices.

1) we have to be good enough to get saved.
2) We have to be good enough to stay saved.
3) we have to be good enough to prove we are saved.

4) We can't ever be good enough so Christ took our place and we cannot undo it. (OSAS)
4a) We are OSAS but God will chasten us in this life only if we are disobedient.
4c) We are OSAS but God will chasten us in either this life or the next.

Your choices are worded in such a way that I wouldn't chose any one of them. The first three are all salvation by works, and thus I don't believe any of them. I do believe in OSAS. I also believe that once a person is saved that the Holy Spirit enters his life, permanently indwells him, and begins to change him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

He produces fruit:
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

That fruit is not always visible to the codemning, criticizing, fault finding Christians who are forever wanting to find fault with other believers instead of looking into their own hearts first.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

We are eternally secure in Christ once we have trusted in Christ.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

The result of salvation is eternal life which can never be taken away:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[J. Jump]

So...if you don't "finish" the race, it means you were never in the race?

No if you don't finish the race it simply means you don't finish the race.

If you don't "finish" the race, you are then punished?

If you want to call it punished then so be it. It is really discipline, although when going through it it certainly feels like punishment. At least it did when I was growing up But as I have gotten older I have seen the folly of that thinking.

Again, please show any race throughout history that the participants were punished for not finishing a race. Even if you don't finish a race, you still place.

Man webdog. Have you ever seen a track meet? You know if a sprinter takes off before the gun starts he is disqualified. He was at the start line, but he never got off the starting line, because he broke the rules. He was "punished" as you say by being disqualified and not allowed to run any longer.

And no that person did not place. It says DQ by their name not a number representing last place.

That's crazy.

Again you can call it whatever you want to, but it doesn't make it false.

There has never been a person to be punished for not finishing a race.

That's quite some knowledge you have built up regarding racing. That's odd that you would no that in the 1,000s of years of running events you would no there has NEVER been a person punished for not running, yet you didn't know the simple rule that a disqualified person doesn't get last place, they get disqualified. Hmmmmm . . .

Please quit playing this card, it's well played out already.

Well you quit putting words in my mouth and deal with what I saw or ask for clarification and then there won't be any need to play the card will there?

IF you finish a race...you place, period.

Again you show your lack of understanding. That simply isn't true! If you finish a race, but cheat or break a rule you DON'T place you are DISQUALIFIED. Those are not the same thing.

If you run the race according to the rules and you finish according to the rules then yes you place and I have NEVER said anything contrary to that.

If you finish a race, and don't follow the rules, you are disqualified from the race, but you are never punished above and beyond that.

And yet again you show your lack of understanding. There have been an number of Olympians that have been caught cheating and not only were they stripped of their placing, but they were banned from running again.

You've really got to get off your "punishment" kick.

 

[J. Jump]

and begins to change him.

Here is one of your false premises. You say that the Holy Spirit begins to change a person as if the person doesn't have a choice. The person must ALLOW the Holy Spirit to change them. It's not an automatic process.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Nice Scripture, but it doesn't say anything about all Christians "will" produce fruit. What is new is their identity in Christ. Their old identity has passed away. They are no longer male, nor female, Jew or Greek. They are simply part of the one new man in Christ.

He produces fruit:
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Wow I don't see anywhere in that "actual" text where it says [he produces fruit]. That simply tells us what the fruit of the Spirit is.

That fruit is not always visible

I would wholeheartedly agree with that. But again that doesn't mean all Christians are fruit producers.

We are eternally secure in Christ once we have trusted in Christ.

Amen! Although I wouldn't use Romans 8:1 to prove that, as you left off the last chunk of that verse

The result of salvation is eternal life which can never be taken away:

Again I would say amen. Eternal salvation results in everlasting life which can never be taken away. And I would use Ephesians 2:8-9 as that is great support!

 

[James_Newman]

So...if you don't "finish" the race, it means you were never in the race? If you don't "finish" the race, you are then punished? Again, please show any race throughout history that the participants were punished for not finishing a race. Even if you don't finish a race, you still place.

The race is a picture, and it only goes as far as it was intended. It teaches us that in order to win the crown we must run.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Your choices are worded in such a way that I wouldn't chose any one of them. The first three are all salvation by works, and thus I don't believe any of them. I do believe in OSAS. I also believe that once a person is saved that the Holy Spirit enters his life, permanently indwells him, and begins to change him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

He produces fruit:
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

That fruit is not always visible to the codemning, criticizing, fault finding Christians who are forever wanting to find fault with other believers instead of looking into their own hearts first.

Do you believe that a Christian automatically will produce fruit? And if so, Must I examine my fruit to know if I am saved? Or put another way, If I feel like I am not producing "fruit" should I doubt my salvation?

If that is your position, Then I would place you squarely on #3.

I believe that the bible tells us to look to Christ's finished work for our assurance.

Lacy

 

[webdog]

The race is a picture, and it only goes as far as it was intended. It teaches us that in order to win the crown we must run.

The "race" is used as proof text to this theological position (ME). I take only as far as you guys do...

 

[James_Newman]

And what does it prove? There is a crown, and you must run to obtain it. If you want to discuss the consequences of not obtaining a crown, we must move on to other texts. You can't argue that losing the crown has no consequences just because you don't think losing a race is a big deal. They run for a corruptible crown, but we for an incorruptible crown. Its a different race.

 

[webdog]

Man webdog. Have you ever seen a track meet?

Yes.

You know if a sprinter takes off before the gun starts he is disqualified.

Not on the first false start. Brush up on your race IQ.

He was at the start line, but he never got off the starting line, because he broke the rules. He was "punished" as you say by being disqualified and not allowed to run any longer.

A DQ cannot finish the race. You stated that those who finish the race can still be punished. Are we still running the race after we are dead? When Paul said He finished the race, he was referring to death. God cannot disqualify you from the race after it has already been run. The punishment would be either the race didn't count, or your medal would be taken away. I fail to see where those who are DQ'd after the race are sent to prison.

That's quite some knowledge you have built up regarding racing. That's odd that you would no that in the 1,000s of years of running events you would no there has NEVER been a person punished for not running, yet you didn't know the simple rule that a disqualified person doesn't get last place, they get disqualified. Hmmmmm . . .

Being disqualified and being punished above and beyond the event are quite different. Being sent to hell for a thousand years is hardly a DQ. It's clear your racing knowledge needs a little dusting off...

And yet again you show your lack of understanding. There have been an number of Olympians that have been caught cheating and not only were they stripped of their placing, but they were banned from running again.

If you apply this to your position, you would see how ridiculous this is. After we finish the race (true believers), will God keep us from running anoother race? The race is LIFE. If we die, we have finished the race. There isn't another one. If we are stripped of our placing, what does that mean? We are punished above and beyond the race? Makes no sense.

Who strips an athlete of their placing...medals...whatever, and then is punished physically for either cheating, or DQ'ing themselves? Absurd...

 

[webdog]

And what does it prove? There is a crown, and you must run to obtain it.

And punishment for not attaining the crown is added onto and above the race?

If I don't win the race, or even finish it, I'm physically punished for 1000 years? Makes no sense, and no text in Scripture supports that.

 

[James_Newman]

Punishment is for disobedience. Not winning the crown is disobedience to God. You have been given everything you need to run the race and obtain it. An earthly runner in an earthly race is relying on his training, his own ability. We are relying on the grace of God which cannot fail, only we can fail of the grace.

Hebrews 12:1-2
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:12-15
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

One of the first steps in winning the crown is acknowledging the race.

Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.