Who Appears at the Great White Throne?

[J. Jump]

Not on the first false start. Brush up on your race IQ.

Wow you really do like to nitpick don't you.

A DQ cannot finish the race.

Exactly! He is disqualified. Paul says the same thing that he doesn't want to be a castaway after having gone the whole way and then throwing it away in the end.

You can be disqualified for a number of rules violations.

You stated that those who finish the race can still be punished.

No I didn't. That is another one of your lies! I stated that those that finished the race WHILE BREAKING THE RULES could be disciplined. Again please deal in what I say, not in what you think I said.

God cannot disqualify you from the race after it has already been run.

Sure He could and He will for those that ran the race, but broke the rules along the way. It's called the Judgement Seat of Christ!

I fail to see where those who are DQ'd after the race are sent to prison.

Well I'm truly sorry that you don't have eyes to see and ears to hear. It truly breaks my heart that people don't, but Scripture tells us as such.

If we die, we have finished the race.

Dying is dying not finishing the race. Of course your opportunity to participate in the race will end once a person dies, but just because someone dies does not mean they finished the race, nor does it mean they ran appropriately. You take leaps that just aren't there in Scripture.

Who strips an athlete of their placing...medals...whatever, and then is punished physically for either cheating, or DQ'ing themselves? Absurd...

What is absurd is how you are trying to make an earthly representation fit perfectly with Spiritual truth. It's not going to happen. That's why you have to build precept upon precept, line upon line here a little there a little. The whole story is not told in one place. You build Scripture upon Scripture.

If I don't win the race, or even finish it, I'm physically punished for 1000 years? Makes no sense, and no text in Scripture supports that.

You really have an issue with punishment don't you.

So why do you think the Lord is going to let someone sho doesn't finish the race rule and reign with Him, when they can't even accomplish what they were supposed to in this life. Talk about absurd and something that makes no sense. That would be it!

 

[DHK]

I see you are using the Webdog mo. You will not be able to find a single post on here where I say that it is okay to sin and that we should actually sin. I will agree with Paul that is foolishness. Now please in the future deal with what I say please.

Here is what you said:

I mean those folks that are saved eternally (get to the starting line), but never produce fruit. Do they just get to rule and reign with Christ despite not showing themselves approved in the here and now?

And if that is true what is the motivation to produce fruit? If everyone that is saved gets to rule and reign with Christ whether they are obedient or disobedient why can't I enjoy all this world has to offer now? Why do I have to deny myself and take up my cross daily if that really doesn't matter?

It is your conjectural questions that infer that infer that it is okay to sin. You said: "I mean these foliks that are saved get to the starting line but never produce fruit." What then do they procuce? What are you inferring? If it is not fruit, then it is the opposite isn't it--the works of the flesh--sin.
Read the second paragraph and see what you are inferring. Sure you put it into hypothetical question form. But I answered the same way. So why should you be offended?

Let me make this ABUNDANTLY clear again. We are not saved and then free to sin. There are penalties and consequences for sin. Sometimes these can even be extremely severe in nature. We are no longer slaves to sin. That doesn't mean we "won't" be slaves to sin. It simply means we don't have to be slaves to sin any longer.

I can agree to that.

Can a Christian sin. Yes. Can a Christian revert back to a lifestyle of sin. Yes. Will they be rewarded with a place in the kingdom of Christ as some Christians think. No.

You have no evidence in Scripture for that. Are you a blind follower of the Joey Faust cult. The Bible simply says that a disobedient believer will lose reward at the JSOC, and that is all. You can't read into Scripture that which is not there.

Well as I have said to many others you are certainly more than welcome to that opinion. But that's all it is.

I can back up what I state from Scriptue. You back up what you say by gobbley-gook from Joey Faust. So which source is more authoritative?

Actually here is part of the problem. There is not lost and saved. There is unsaved and saved. Lost does not equate to unsaved. There is nowhere in Scripture that makes that connection. If so please give me some examples.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

There is them that perish (are lost), and them that are saved.
That is the same as the saved and the unsaved. You can do a more detailed study if you wish, but I know that the Bible teaches this truth.

I agree with the statement, but not in the way you use it based on your following statements. A saved person is changed in that they are no longer male or female, Jew or Greek. They are simply a part of the one new man in Christ. They are a new nation. It doesn't have anything to do with a changed lifestyle.

So you deny that the Holy Spirit changes a person. Incredible!

That just simply isn't true. There is no Scripture to back that up. All that is is a backloaded works doctrine that keep people from moving on because they are constantly worried if they are doing the right things and if they are doing enough of the right things. It's a works-based salvation that just puts the works on the back end of the equation.

I conclude thus:
1. You deny in the operation of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life,
2. You believe in a works-based salvatioin. It is not I that believes this way but you. Salvation is by grace through faith. You are demanding works. I say quite the opposite and something totally different which you seem unable to comprehend. I didn't say anything about works. I even gave you an example. There were no works in after the thief on the cross cried out to Christ, but his life was definitely changed. Read my previous post to see how his life evidenced change. I said that a believer must evidence change in his life. That is apart from works. The fruit of the Spirit is not necessarily works. You seem to be confused.

If you put works in the grace by faith equation mistakes will ALWAYS be made. Works are NEVER in that equation, prior to, during or after. NEVER. Apart from works, means apart from works.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say works; I said "change."

Well I would ask you the same question. That's not what Scripture says, so why start with a false premise?

You were the one that started with a false premise. I am responding to your post that started with a false premise. I don't know what your talking about. Your statement again is illogical.

Again another accusation that is baseless. Please tell me where I have judged anyone. I have made no statements about anyone's fruit or lack there of. I have made general statements about Christians who do produce fruits and who do not. Again if you want to accuse then please provide evidence along with the accusation or don't accuse.

I can produce plenty of evidence. You repeatedly say what kind of people will enter the kingdom, will sit on thrones, will enter heaven, will lose reward, are saved or not saved. You do not know the hearts of men. Why do you infer that you do? Why are you taking the place of God. Only God knows the heart.
Understand this. The Bible says in no uncertain terms:
"The Lord knows them that are His."

It does not say:
J. Jump knows them that are the Lord's.

 

[J. Jump]

It is your conjectural questions that infer that infer that it is okay to sin. You said: "I mean these foliks that are saved get to the starting line but never produce fruit." What then do they procuce? What are you inferring? If it is not fruit, then it is the opposite isn't it--the works of the flesh--sin.
Read the second paragraph and see what you are inferring. Sure you put it into hypothetical question form. But I answered the same way. So why should you be offended?

No you read my statements and inferred that on your own. Had you asked for clarification by saying something to the tune of "are you saying or are you inferring that it is okay for people to sin," then you could have understood what I was trying to say.

But I don't think you really want to understand what I'm trying to say. I believe you just want to put "your" spin on things.

Can people sin? Yes. Will they get away with it without penalty? No.

That is simply what the Bible teaches. We don't have to be slaves to sin, but that doesn't mean we won't.

You have no evidence in Scripture for that.

Acutally there is a TON of evidence in Scripture of exactly that.

Are you a blind follower of the Joey Faust cult.

Nope. But thanks for asking. I'm not a "blind" follower of anyone unless you wanted to say I'm a blind follower of Christ, but that's really not good terminology as Christ doesn't want us to be blind.

Just so you know I had never heard of Joey Faust until recently. I discovered this Truth of Scripture before I was ever introduced to him. And I have never read his book nor have I ever listened to a sermon of his.

(Sorry James, never got around to listening to a couple of the messages you sent me )

The Bible simply says that a disobedient believer will lose reward at the JSOC, and that is all.

No it doesn't. There is not a single text that says a believer will "lose reward." If there is please show it to me, because I've never seen it.

You can't read into Scripture that which is not there.

It's strikes me as hilarious that opponents of the gospel of the kingdom try to use this argument, when in fact it is the kingdom believers that keep trying to get people to let Scripture say what it says. I continue to chuckle.

I can back up what I state from Scriptue.

Well let me make this offer to you. No one else has taken me up on it. If you can back up with Scripture what you believe and think that I am wrong then let's start a one-on-one conversation and deal with Scripture. Just PM me or email me and show me in Scripture where I am wrong. I'll await your response.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

There is them that perish (are lost), and them that are saved.
That is the same as the saved and the unsaved. You can do a more detailed study if you wish, but I know that the Bible teaches this truth.

Last time I checked something had to be alive in order to perish. That is not talking about the saved and the unsaved. That is talking about the lost (perishing) and the saved. Now what was that about reading into Scripture that which was not there? You are reading lost as unsaved. But that is simply not the case. Paul is talking to believers in regard to believers lives.

So you deny that the Holy Spirit changes a person. Incredible!

YES the Holy Spirit changes a person. I NEVER denied that. Again you lie about me. Why is that? Again please show me evidence where I "typed" the Holy Spirit doesn't change a person.

They are no longer male nor female. They are no longer Jew or Greek. That is how the Holy Spirit changes a person. A person's spirit is passed from death unto life. That is how the Holy Spirit changes a person. The spirit and the soul are separated as light from darkness. That is how the Holy Spirit changes a person.

Please quit accusing me falsely!

1. You deny in the operation of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life,

Shouldn't there be some restrictions that a moderator can't lie about another poster without penalty?

2. You believe in a works-based salvatioin.

Again more lies. Again if you are going to accuse someone of something please provide proof. Please show me where I said anyone was eternally saved based on works. You will not find that.

Salvation is by grace through faith. You are demanding works.

So I guess moderators get to say anything they want about people whether they can prove it or not huh. Well it is in fact YOU that demands works saying that a person that doesn't produce fruit isn't saved in the first place.

I didn't say anything about works.

Your self-deception is incredible.

Here is a direct quote from you

He produces fruit:

That is works.

The fruit of the Spirit is not necessarily works. You seem to be confused.

Wow I'm confused? So if all we are supposed to do is produce the fruit of the spirit which is not works. Then what works are we going to be judged on at the JSOC. Man you folks are all over the board.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say works; I said "change."

You said change that produces fruit. That is works. Just because you deny that fruit production is work well I can't help that. I have to say that the "fruit production is not work" argument is a new one that I've never heard before.

You were the one that started with a false premise. I am responding to your post that started with a false premise. I don't know what your talking about. Your statement again is illogical.

Well I'm glad you say it is illogical, because its the exact same arugment you used on me. See that's how you folks operate. You use an argument, but when the SAME thing gets turned back on you its illogical. This just cracks me up!

I can produce plenty of evidence.

Then let's see it. Again if you have evidence I've already asked once for it, so if it is so readily availble why didn't you include it in your last post? Please give me one text where I judge another specific believer.

Making general statements about Christians in general is not judging. I am not anyone's judge. I am merely stating what Scripture says. That's not judging.

So yes your accusation is baseless, but that should come as no surprise to anyone.

You repeatedly say what kind of people will enter the kingdom, will sit on thrones, will enter heaven, will lose reward, are saved or not saved.

You're right, because Scripture tells us.

You do not know the hearts of men.

Absolutely correct, and I have NEVER said anything to the contrary or even inferred anything to the contrary as you again so falsely accuse.

Understand this. The Bible says in no uncertain terms:
"The Lord knows them that are His."

It does not say:
J. Jump knows them that are the Lord's.

Amen.

But let me just turn around the argument again. I know you'll accuse me of being illogical, but here goes.

DHK says that all Christians will rule and reign with Christ. So DHK knows the hearts of all Christians. But yet the Bible says "The Lord knows them that are His." It does not say: DHK knows them that are the Lord's.

Amen?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Regardless of the double talk coming from some, when one states that a Child of God will spend 1000 years in hell for sin in his or her life, and then after the 1000 years be accepted of God to live eternally with Him, that one is saying it is ok to sin.

Go ahead and live like you want is the message sent. You may go to hell for a while, but God will bring you into His eternal kingdom afterwards.

There is no Scripture to back such a foolish claim and when we ask to produce such Scripture, one constantly wants you to PM him and he will give the Scriptural proof.

He must be afraid of being shot down publically with his false doctrine because he refuses to post it in a thread for all to see.

 

[James_Newman]

Regardless of the double talk coming from some, when one states that a Child of God will spend 1000 years in hell for sin in his or her life, and then after the 1000 years be accepted of God to live eternally with Him, that one is saying it is ok to sin.

Go ahead and live like you want is the message sent. You may go to hell for a while, but God will bring you into His eternal kingdom afterwards.

There is no Scripture to back such a foolish claim and when we ask to produce such Scripture, one constantly wants you to PM him and he will give the Scriptural proof.

He must be afraid of being shot down publically with his false doctrine because he refuses to post it in a thread for all to see.

I'll say it. Yes, it is OK to sin after you are saved as long as you don't mind going to hell for a thousand years, if by OK you mean God won't take back His free gift of salvation. Any rational thinking being would understand that going to hell for a thousand years would far outweigh any supposed pleasure of sinning for a short season. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire. We don't get saved by not sinning, we get saved by believing on Jesus because of His obedience.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

By that one man's obedience many were made righteous. So why should the righteous have to go to hell?

 

[James_Newman]

Why should the righteous be chastened in this life for sin?

 

[webdog]

Why should the righteous be chastened in this life for sin?

Um....because we are still sinners?

 

[webdog]

Wow you really do like to nitpick don't you.

If you are trying to tell me about racing, you should know what you are talking about first.

WEBDOG: You stated that those who finish the race can still be punished.

No I didn't. That is another one of your lies! I stated that those that finished the race WHILE BREAKING THE RULES could be disciplined. Again please deal in what I say, not in what you think I said.

What did you say on page 10? Oh, yeah...

JJUMP: If you finish the race and don't run it properly then you do not receive a prize and yes you can be punished.

Please quit accusing everyone of misrepresenting what you say...putting words in your mouth...lying, etc. You are only embarrasing yourself, and being deliberately untruthful...a sin that can land your behind in hell for a thousand years. Whether you said "while breaking the rules" or whatever, you DID say that those who finish the race can be punished, so NO, I am not lying.

Sure He could and He will for those that ran the race, but broke the rules along the way. It's called the Judgement Seat of Christ!

And what happens? They have no chance of winning the prize! They are not punished ABOVE AND BEYOND the paramaters of the race!

Well I'm truly sorry that you don't have eyes to see and ears to hear. It truly breaks my heart that people don't, but Scripture tells us as such.

I thank God that the Holy Spirit helps me to discern between false doctrines!

Dying is dying not finishing the race. Of course your opportunity to participate in the race will end once a person dies, but just because someone dies does not mean they finished the race, nor does it mean they ran appropriately. You take leaps that just aren't there in Scripture.

Please do tell at what point in Paul's life he made that stament then, if it wasn't in regards to leaving this earth.

What is absurd is how you are trying to make an earthly representation fit perfectly with Spiritual truth.

I'm sorry, who used the reference to running a race first?

You really have an issue with punishment don't you.

Not particularly. I'm pretty fond of God's justice. I have an issue with heresy and false doctrine, though.

So why do you think the Lord is going to let someone sho doesn't finish the race rule and reign with Him, when they can't even accomplish what they were supposed to in this life. Talk about absurd and something that makes no sense. That would be it!

Who's putting words into who's mouth? Who said the one who doesn't finish the race will rule and reign? Surely not I! What I am saying is the one who doesn't finish the race isn't taken out back and tortured for a thousand years!

 

[James_Newman]

Um....because we are still sinners?

OK, then if you are still a sinner when you get to the judgment seat of Christ, you can be chastened there as well.

 

[webdog]

OK, then if you are still a sinner when you get to the judgment seat of Christ, you can be chastened there as well.

The flesh is what sins. If I am standing before God at the JSOC I won't have that old flesh around...will I?

 

[James_Newman]

It doesn't matter if your 'old flesh' is there or not, you are responsible for what you allow your flesh to do.

1 Corinthians 9:27
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Your flesh must be brought into subjection to the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16-17
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

If you are walking in the Spirit, then you are not allowing your flesh to lead. If you allow your flesh to lead, you will be held responsible for it, to the extent that you made provision for the flesh.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

You can't do the works of the flesh and honestly expect to inherit the kingdom of God, can you? When we allow our flesh to carry out sins, we are denying the Lord in that we are denying His power to overcome sin. We can't say we are unable to overcome the flesh, we are supposed to reckon our flesh crucified with Christ.

 

[webdog]

You can't do the works of the flesh and honestly expect to inherit the kingdom of God, can you?

Didn't seem to apply to the thief on the cross, did it? He lived a lifetime for the flesh, but in a single moment inherited paradise...unless you think he will be cast into the lake of fire for a thousand years, too.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Paul crucified his flesh, and yet he still sinned. Yet he was certain he had that crown laid up for him.

 

[James_Newman]

Didn't seem to apply to the thief on the cross, did it? He lived a lifetime for the flesh, but in a single moment inherited paradise...unless you think he will be cast into the lake of fire for a thousand years, too.

He got saved in that single moment. We are discussing Christians who sin after salvation.

 

[James_Newman]

Paul crucified his flesh, and yet he still sinned. Yet he was certain he had that crown laid up for him.

What was Paul's sin?

2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

These aren't the words of an unrepentent adulterer, are they?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Didn't seem to apply to the thief on the cross, did it? He lived a lifetime for the flesh, but in a single moment inherited paradise...unless you think he will be cast into the lake of fire for a thousand years, too.

He went to Paradise to await the judgment. We have no way of knowing what reward (positive or negative), if any, awaits him at the JSOC.

PS. the Lake of Fire is not Hell. (Rev 20)

 

[James_Newman]

He went to Paradise to await the judgment. We have no way of knowing what reward (positive or negative), if any, awaits him at the JSOC.

PS. the Lake of Fire is not Hell. (Rev 20)

thank you, Lacy, I didn't even catch that.

 

[J. Jump]

Please quit accusing everyone of misrepresenting what you say...putting words in your mouth...lying, etc.

Then quit misrepresenting what I say. I see your conveniently left out a bolded part of my actual text to "make" it say what YOU wanted it to say.

If you can't see you are misrepresenting what I say you are more blind words can describe.

But just so people can see what you are doing let me point it out again for all to see. Here is what you accused me of saying:

You stated that thosewho finish the race can still be punished.

And here is what I ACTUALLY said:

If you finish the race and don't run it properly then you do not receive a prizeand yes you can be punished.

Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out those aren't the same statements. Quit misrepesenting what I say. It's not that difficult, at least for most.

You are only embarrasing yourself, and being deliberately untruthful...a sin that can land your behind in hell for a thousand years.

I really honestly can see how you can be so self-deceived that you can lie about someone, accuse them of saying these they didn't say, believing things that don't believe and then have the gall to say I'm the one embarrasiing myself. That is just HILARIOUS :laugh:

But even if I was lying (WHICH I AM NOT - That is easy to see) by your belief it wouldn't matter anyway as I could lie all I wanted to and my place in the kingdom still awaits me. Or you might say I was never saved in the first place, which isn't true either.

Whether you said "while breaking the rules" or whatever, you DID say that those who finish the race can be punished, so NO, I am not lying.

Well now we can a half-hearted "well I didn't exactly say what you said" statement, but then you just keep on rolling with your non-sense.

If you say I said something that I didn't say that is LYING no matter how you want to dodge the issue. And you don't even have the excuse of accidentally doing it. You are full fledge intentional in your misrepresentations.

Please do tell at what point in Paul's life he made that stament then, if it wasn't in regards to leaving this earth.

Paul was living a life of obedience. He was running the race. You can't apply what he says about himself to all people all the time.

I'm sorry, who used the reference to running a race first?

That would be Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Who's putting words into who's mouth? Who said the one who doesn't finish the race will rule and reign? Surely not I! What I am saying is the one who doesn't finish the race isn't taken out back and tortured for a thousand years!

Well if I have misrepresented your beliefs I do apologize. So if that's not what you believe please share with me what happens to Christians that are found to be disobedient, unfaithful and non-overcoming. Please share with me so that I don't misrepresent you in the future.

 

[BobRyan]

The flesh is what sins. If I am standing before God at the JSOC I won't have that old flesh around...will I?

There is only "one person" to be judged not two or three. You are only ONE person so you can be saved or lost but not both.

2Cor 5 says you are judged for the deeds done in the body "whether good OR evil" .

Romans 6 says that evil deeds get the judgment of hell.

There is no escaping this - but Romans 2:1-16 has the solution describing in detail BOTH the failing cases AND the successful cases.

In Christ,

Bob