Who Chooses?

[Charlie24]

Ephesians 1:3-5

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

God in His foreknowledge knew "before the foundation of the world" that man would fall. A plan was devised before man was created, to redeem man from that fall. God's redemption plan for man is centered on the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ.

This redemption plan was predestined for mankind. This is how "He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." He chose us through His redemption plan "to be conformed into the image of His Son."

It's not that God has chosen the individual for salvation as to whether he will be saved or lost, but that He has chosen man for His plan of redemption. Mankind was predestinated to be saved a certain way, God's redemption plan through Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29-30

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

"For whom He did foreknow," He knew us before He created us, those who would believe and not believe.

"He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of God." We were chosen to be conformed to the image of Christ through His redemption plan. But only those who would answer the calling of the Holy Spirit.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate" To be conformed to the image of Christ through His redemption plan.

"Them He also called" This is the call of the Holy Spirit through the conviction of sin when the Gospel is heard. It demands a response. It's the redemption plan in action. He already knows "from the foundation of the world" who will believe and will not. He knows who will accept that calling.

"And whom He called, them He justified" The ones who accept that call are justified in His sight by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. "Whosoever will let him come." Rev. 22:17

"And whom He justified, them He also glorified." This is the glorification at the resurrection yet to come. It's said in the past tense as though it's already taken place. Only God could make such a statement and guarantee it.

 

[DaveXR650]

It's not that God has chosen the individual for salvation as to whether he will be saved or lost, but that He has chosen man for His plan of redemption. Mankind was predestinated to be saved a certain way, God's redemption plan through Jesus Christ.

I read a lot of Calvinist theologians because I like and respect them and have benefited from their teaching. I do notice that they all seem to believe that God has indeed chosen individuals for salvation - yet their preaching is full of warnings about failing to repent of sin and come to Christ. I can't reconcile this either except to say that whenever you hear a Calvinist start diminishing the reality of your need to repent of your sins and come to Christ you can know that they are going beyond what the great Calvinist preachers preached.

They clearly appealed to a person's will and set forth the gospel as something to be heard and then accepted or rejected. Those that do that I am with. Those who don't do that I would not join with or support.

 

[kyredneck]

Romans 8:29-30

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

"For whom He did foreknow," He knew us before He created us, those who would believe and not believe.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

The pronouns don't support your theory, Charlie.

 

[Charlie24]

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

The pronouns don't support your theory, Charlie.

Hello ky, it's been a while my friend! Good point! Let's take a look at those verses.

If we back up a few verses we will see that God is being judged as unfair concerning Jacob and Esau. Rom. 9:13-14.

Paul is making the point that there is no unrighteousness with God. Jacob met the conditions that were required by God for acceptance (salvation) and Esau did not.

Then Paul brings up God's conversation with Moses, " I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy..."

God has mercy ONLY on those who meet His just requirements, His conditions of repentance and faith.

Esau went about to produce his own salvation apart from God's prescribed order.

Paul points his actions out in vs. 16,

So then it's not of him who wills (Esau willed his own way) nor of him who runs (Esau was trying to earn his salvation apart from God's conditions) But of God who shows mercy (God showed that mercy to Jacob because he followed God's condition for his salvation).

 

[kyredneck]

Jacob met the conditions that were required by God for acceptance (salvation) and Esau did not.

???

Romans Chapter 9

11​	for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
12​	it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13​	Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

God has mercy ONLY on those who meet His just requirements, His conditions of repentance and faith.

Doesn’t sound like grace to me if you have to meet a condition first.

 

[Charlie24]

???

Romans Chapter 9

11​	for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
12​	it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13​	Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Vs. 11 is referring to Jacob and Esau being brothers in the womb. "according to election" is God's foreknowledge knowing who the elect is, in this case it was Jacob who would meet the prescribed order of God.

Vs. 12 is referring to God speaking to Rebecca, that though Esau was firstborn, he would serve Jacob, the elect of God.

Vs 13 God didn't hate Esau as we understand the word "hate." It was his attitude toward God in demanding his own way that God rejected him. He would not humble himself before God.

 

[Charlie24]

Doesn’t sound like grace to me if you have to meet a condition first.

John 3:16

For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son, THAT (the condition) whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Van]

Everyone believing into Him refers to God crediting a lost individual's faith as righteousness, and on that basis, transferring the person's spiritually dead spirit into Christ where the individual is made alive together with Christ by the washing of regeneration. They undergo the circumcision of Christ which removes the "sin burden" or what God holds against the individual, by the blood of the Lamb, or by the sacrifice of Christ's physical life.

We choose to believe or not, and whether to go "all in" for Christ, or superficially. But it is God alone who chooses to credit our imperfect faith, as righteousness or not. Thus we can choose to prevent our salvation with no or little faith, but God alone chooses to provide our salvation or not. Our faith is according to grace, Romans 4:16, not works. Not to put too fine a point on it, but our uncredited faith did not contribute in any way to our salvation because we were not saved, but our credited faith's contribution was God's grace in crediting it as righteousness.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

John 3:16

For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son, THAT (the condition) whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

You are reading a condition into the text. The verse simply says that whosoever has the act of belief will have eternal life as a result. Read further until you get to John 6 and you’ll discover that Jesus says that the Father is the one that gives that act of the belief to the sheep.

 

[Charlie24]

You are reading a condition into the text. The verse simply says that whosoever has the act of belief will have eternal life as a result. Read further until you get to John 6 and you’ll discover that Jesus says that the Father is the one that gives that act of the belief to the sheep.

Rom. 10:9-10

"THAT IF (The Condition) thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

 

[Christforums]

I read a lot of Calvinist theologians because I like and respect them and have benefited from their teaching. I do notice that they all seem to believe that God has indeed chosen individuals for salvation - yet their preaching is full of warnings about failing to repent of sin and come to Christ. I can't reconcile this either except to say that whenever you hear a Calvinist start diminishing the reality of your need to repent of your sins and come to Christ you can know that they are going beyond what the great Calvinist preachers preached.

They clearly appealed to a person's will and set forth the gospel as something to be heard and then accepted or rejected. Those that do that I am with. Those who don't do that I would not join with or support.

You can choose not to sin, ability on the other hand is a different topic. The Gospel of Grace (Calvinism) encourages us not to sin or become complacent in sin, but to persevere to the last day. The Gospel in this way encourages us towards holiness and righteousness, and not theological fatalism (if G-d is Sovereign why try).

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

"THAT IF (The Condition) thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

That is descriptive of what the elect do, not prescriptive of how to become one of the elect.

 

[Charlie24]

That is descriptive of what the elect do, not prescriptive of how to become one of the elect.

Acts 16:29-31

Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved (The Condition), and thy house."

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved (The Condition), and thy house."

Sir, you keep jumping around to other verses without considering what all of scripture has to say when you put it together.

The reason why the Philippians jailer was able to believe was because the Father granted him the ability to do so.

John 6:28-29 - Then they said to Him “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[Charlie24]

Sir, you keep jumping around to other verses without considering what all of scripture has to say when you put it together.

The reason why the Philippians jailer was able to believe was because the Father granted him the ability to do so.

John 6:28-29 - Then they said to Him “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Yea, that's what the Calvinist's believe, Irresistible Grace! No one cant's resist it, right?

I don't want to be one of those robots running around heaven. God chose to bring the Gospel to me and I believed Him and accepted Christ as my Saviour.

He planned, before I was born, to give me that Gospel knowing I would accept it. He chose me first, sought me out and showed me His love in giving His Son for my sins, and made me one of His own. God respected my person by giving me a choice, as He does with all of us.

 

[Christforums]

I don't want to be one of those robots running around heaven. God chose to bring the Gospel to me and I believed Him and accepted Christ as my Saviour.

Would you rather the programming of the World in contrast?

You're addressing a computer geek and his analogy.

Are your better off transformed according to the World? It is easier, the World will love you. And I'm sure many love your response.

 

[Charlie24]

Would you rather the programming of the World in contrast?

You're addressing a computer geek and his analogy.

Are your better off transformed according to the World? It is easier, the World will love you. And I'm sure many love your response.

Maybe so, I don't know. What I do know is that the Scripture is filled with examples of "free will."

The God-given right to choose for ourselves. No one will ever be able to say, God never gave me a chance.

 

[Silverhair]

Doesn’t sound like grace to me if you have to meet a condition first.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

God's grace given to those who met the condition of faith/trust in Him.

 

[Christforums]

Maybe so, I don't know. What I do know is that the Scripture is filled with examples of "free will."

The God-given right to choose for ourselves. No one will ever be able to say, God never gave me a chance.

I encourage you to study those passages, whenever, the free will offering is mentioned (not by compulsion of the law").

If I may offer a recent write up by myself: Why does mankind want to believe Satan? - The school of Isaiah

Consider, what you mean by free will. Whether or not choice, or the ability to fulfill what you decide or choose might be more orthodox (true and correct).