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Who did Christ come to save?
- Thread starter Mark Osgatharp
- Start date
So, Bob, when the bible says that the Devil is "the deceiver of the whole world," or that "the whole earth" wonders after the beast, Revelation 13:3, you believe that every single person, without exception, is deceived and that every single person, without exception, will wonder after the beast?
Do you believe that in 1 John 5:19, "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one," the author meant every individual of mankind, and that he and those to whom he wrote were also in the evil one?
Or when Paul wrote to the new Christian Church at Rome that their faith was "proclaimed throughout the whole world," Romans 1:8, do you believe that every single person in the entire world, without exception, had heard of the church in Rome and their faith? Even the aborigines in Australia and the Indians in what would become America?
When Jesus was born, "There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed,"..." and all went to be taxed," Luke 2:1, 3; you believe that everybody, including the aborigines in Australia and the Indians in what would become America were all taxed and every one of them went to their home cities to be placed on the tax rolls?
On the day of Pentecost, "there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven," Acts 2:5, do you believe there were people from Japan, Korea, the Philippines, and Canada in Jerusalem on that day?
When Paul says that the Gospel was "preached in all creation under heaven," Colossians 1:23, do you believe it was preached in all of Africa and South America?
When the goddess Diana of the Ephesians was said to have been worshipped by "all Asia and the world," Acts 19:27, do you think everybody in Alaska, Central America, and the Solomon Islands worshipped Diana?
When we are told that the famine which came over Egypt in Joseph's time extended to "all the earth," and that "all countries came into Egypt to Joseph to buy grain," Genesis 41:57, do you think people traveled from America, Alaska, Hawaii, and Japan to buy grain?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Make an argument that you actually believe.
In Eph 2:1-5 we see that the devil is the one who enslaves us -- even the saints BEFORE their conversion -- none of us are BORN saintly, BORN justified or BORN free from the Romans 6 issue of slavery "By what you are overcome by that you are enslaved".
You are simply "casting about you" looking for ways to take a clear statement and say "well that is not ALWAYS true - SURELY there are some exceptions - some wiggle room - some way to get out of it".
But why try to "get out of" God "So loved the World"???
What is the incentive to dig around for a solution to that manufactured problem?
[/quote]
Is this really "Sufficient" proof for you to "reject the truth" that "God so Loved the WORLD that HE GAVE"????
Is THAT IT??
Or is this "yet another example" of "casting about you:" to find some pretext to use as hope for rejecting the teaching that "God so Loved the World that HE GAVE"??
In Christ,
Bob
Hey, Bob! Afraid to answer the questions? Running away again?
Here, I will retype them:
On the day of Pentecost, "there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven," Acts 2:5, do you believe there were people from Japan, Korea, the Philippines, and Canada in Jerusalem on that day?
When Paul says that the Gospel was "preached in all creation under heaven," Colossians 1:23, do you believe it was preached in all of Africa and South America?
When the goddess Diana of the Ephesians was said to have been worshipped by "all Asia and the world," Acts 19:27, do you think everybody in Alaska, Central America, and the Solomon Islands worshipped Diana?
When we are told that the famine which came over Egypt in Joseph's time extended to "all the earth," and that "all countries came into Egypt to Joseph to buy grain," Genesis 41:57, do you think people traveled from America, Alaska, Hawaii, and Japan to buy grain?
Okay, Bob. Now, if you have the courage to actually address the questions instead of lying about me "reject(ing) the truth" and "pretext" do so. If no, just admit you don't know squat about the bible, salvation, Christ, God, and the gospel and save yourself a lot of grief.
By the way, King James Bond certainly has your number with his response in http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1608/8.html#000119
LOL! ROFLOL!
Here, I will retype them:
On the day of Pentecost, "there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven," Acts 2:5, do you believe there were people from Japan, Korea, the Philippines, and Canada in Jerusalem on that day?
When Paul says that the Gospel was "preached in all creation under heaven," Colossians 1:23, do you believe it was preached in all of Africa and South America?
When the goddess Diana of the Ephesians was said to have been worshipped by "all Asia and the world," Acts 19:27, do you think everybody in Alaska, Central America, and the Solomon Islands worshipped Diana?
When we are told that the famine which came over Egypt in Joseph's time extended to "all the earth," and that "all countries came into Egypt to Joseph to buy grain," Genesis 41:57, do you think people traveled from America, Alaska, Hawaii, and Japan to buy grain?
Okay, Bob. Now, if you have the courage to actually address the questions instead of lying about me "reject(ing) the truth" and "pretext" do so. If no, just admit you don't know squat about the bible, salvation, Christ, God, and the gospel and save yourself a lot of grief.
By the way, King James Bond certainly has your number with his response in http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1608/8.html#000119
LOL! ROFLOL!
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
TCassidy,
I'm going to say this one more time. I hope you will at least address it.
Even if we accept your proposition that "the world" in John 12 48 does not mean "every single member of the human race" it does not change my argument one iota.
Jesus said He came to save "the world" and said some of that world would reject Him. No matter how narrowly you define "the world" the text proves that by saying He came "to save the world" Jesus meant He came to give the opportunity to be saved.
Are you listening this time: Jesus said that some out of "the world" He came to save would reject Him. There is no evading it.
Mark Osgatharp
I'm going to say this one more time. I hope you will at least address it.
Even if we accept your proposition that "the world" in John 12 48 does not mean "every single member of the human race" it does not change my argument one iota.
Jesus said He came to save "the world" and said some of that world would reject Him. No matter how narrowly you define "the world" the text proves that by saying He came "to save the world" Jesus meant He came to give the opportunity to be saved.
Are you listening this time: Jesus said that some out of "the world" He came to save would reject Him. There is no evading it.
Mark Osgatharp
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Make an argument that you actually believe.
In Eph 2:1-5 we see that the devil is the one who enslaves us -- even the saints BEFORE their conversion -- none of us are BORN saintly, BORN justified or BORN free from the Romans 6 issue of slavery "By what you are overcome by that you are enslaved".
You are simply "casting about you" looking for ways to take a clear statement and say "well that is not ALWAYS true - SURELY there are some exceptions - some wiggle room - some way to get out of it".
But why try to "get out of" God "So loved the World"???
What is the incentive to dig around for a solution to that manufactured problem?
</font>[/QUOTE]Is this really "Sufficient" proof for you to "reject the truth" that "God so Loved the WORLD that HE GAVE"????
Is THAT IT??
Or is this "yet another example" of "casting about you:" to find some pretext to use as hope for rejecting the teaching that "God so Loved the World that HE GAVE"??
In Christ,
Bob [/QUOTE]
Did I already post that?
It seems to be slipping past some of our sharp CAlvinist posters.
Maybe I should have quoted Eph 2:2-3 and 2Cor 4:4 for them.
Ok - coming up.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The prince of the power of the air is said to have control of the sons of disobedience --
"3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Get it?
Those who seek to deny that "God so Loved the World" by denying Rev 12:9 that Satan is the one deceiving the whole world - are simply indulging in a pipe dream.
In Christ,
Bob
Yes, Jesus came to save the world. Both Jews and Gentiles. Not just Jews. And some of both Jews and Gentiles will reject Him. That is patently obvious, but your attempt to say that this somehow disproves the biblical doctrine of limited atonement is ridiculously poor exegesis. One of the reasons I seldom respond to your posts is that you seem to have absolutely no understanding of spiritual things at all and you seem to have no desire to learn.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
TC - you have to actually read the post and follow the salient points to make a point.
Did you see the argument about Satan NOT being the one who decieves the wORLD inspite of what Rev 12:9 says?
You know the Bible-denying position that Calvinism "needs" to take up here?
Or were you just skipping that part today?
In Christ,
Bob
Did you see the argument about Satan NOT being the one who decieves the wORLD inspite of what Rev 12:9 says?
You know the Bible-denying position that Calvinism "needs" to take up here?
Or were you just skipping that part today?
In Christ,
Bob
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
That is not what Jesus said. He said He would not judge certain people who rejected Him because He came to save those people, not to judge them. There is no evading it.
Mark Osgatharp
King James Bond
New Member
It is really too bad Mark does not start at the start! If he would at least keep in the frame of what was being said he could gain some context to his very first post.....at least stay on course that Jews were in unbelief because they were not capable to believe.
Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them."
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.
Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.
Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
Please note that Jesus did not come to judge the world for a reason....it is already judged and found wanting.
Sure looks as if He makes believers out of unbelievers.
KJB
Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them."
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.
Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.
Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
Please note that Jesus did not come to judge the world for a reason....it is already judged and found wanting.
Sure looks as if He makes believers out of unbelievers.
KJB
bro_ken128
New Member
Most Calvinists believe in limited atonement. That only the "elect", God's choosing the ones to be saved and those who won't be saved, would be saved. Christ came into the world to make salvation available to all mankind. There are some who would accept that salvation and some who would reject. That is that. Plain as day and night. Christ did not come to save the "Elect" but to save all men that would accept his free gift therefore making them the elect.
No discussion can change that.
No discussion can change that.
Wow! If the above were not so sad it would be funny.
Well, not exactly. You have confused limited atonement with unconditional election. Limited atonement says that the atonement is sufficient to expiate the sins of every person who ever lived, or ever will live, but is efficient only for those who believe in Christ as Savior.
Well, not exactly. Christ came into the world to save sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). And He did so. Your version of the gospel says that Jesus didn't really save sinners, He just made it possible for them to save themselves.
Yes, we know. That is exactly what Calvinism teaches.
Big problem. The bible says the elect were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). Also you might want to look at 2 Timothy 2:10, "Therefore I endure all things for the elect‘s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." Oh oh! There went your theory, right out the theological window.
King James Bond
New Member
TCassidy,
That was good.....really really good! Well done.
KJB
That was good.....really really good! Well done.
KJB
I haven't read all the posts, so if someone has already pointed this out on this thread please let me know and forgive me for the repeat.
Jesus did save the whole world.
Read Romans 8 in full context.
What does scripture say about a new heaven and a new earth?
Bro. Dallas Eaton
Jesus did save the whole world.
Read Romans 8 in full context.
What does scripture say about a new heaven and a new earth?
Bro. Dallas Eaton
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
If only THAT were actually true about Calvinism!!
When we get to 1John 2:2 Calvinists like to argue that Christ is NOT The Atoning Sacrifice for the WHOLE WORLD even though the text SAYS He is!!
They prefer to say "propitiation" in honor of the greek pagan notion of appeasement instead of the Hebrew context of "Atonement" -- but even then they have argued ON THIS BOARD -- REPEATEDLY - that this is NOT for the WHOLE WORLD -
Christ does not even suffer and die for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD in Calvinism much less "effectively atone" for the WHOLE WORLD. They argue that IF Christ sufferred the amount OWED by the WHOLE World then in the case of the finally lost - that would be "God getting paid TWICE" and they think that is a bad thing.
So they argue that God gets "paid" or "Expiated" or "appeased" only for the DEBT owed by the saints and Christ does NOT endure the suffering owed (the debt owed) by the finally lost - so that God only get's paid "ONCE" for each person.
And that is what is so counterfactual to scripture in Calvinism's "Limited Atonement".
They define Atonement as the suffering of Christ at the cross - so when they speak of limited atonement it is AUTOMATICALLY limited amount of suffering that is in direct proportion/payment/expiation/appeasement for the sins of the saints.
In Christ,
Bob
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Monergist;
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike
Just where is it that the Bible says Jesus death purchased redemption. Christ didn't die to purchase redemption. He died so that His blood would wash away the sins of the world. Redemption is what he did not what he died for.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike