Who did Christ die for?

[Jarthur001]

Allan.....

Just read man.

Now you may want to point to your two verses in 1 John again. The same writer...using the same phrase idea. Well because it was off subject I past it over as you know. Sometimes this is mistaking for I have nothing to say on it. Let me show you something it is clear you have overlooked.

Q

uote:
18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

What we have been asking is...does the word WORLD mean all of mankind. You say whole world always will. But notice same author...same book...disagrees. In this case the whole world only means the non elect. You have those that are of God and 2nd you have the whole world of wickedness. If you read verse 18 it becomes very clear.


Now back in 1 John we have the same thing. Whole world does not mean all of mankind, but the whole of all races. How easy and plain can it get?

hello?



later dude...

 

[psalms109:31]

Elect

They scripture clearly show being the elect doesn't prove you are saved.

The Jews are God's elect, but they were cut out for unbelief.

The elect are believers, being chosen doesn't mean you are saved, since you can be cut out for unbelief. Spend some time trying to put these scripture in your belief system.

Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 3:
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

Jude 1:
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

With seeing the Jews throughout scripture I do not see any hope in election only in trusting in Jesus. Jesus is the only guarentee found in scripture for salvation.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

John seems pretty consistant with how he views the phrase 'whole world'. And so it seems that propitiation not for ours only but the sins of the 'whole world' can be replaced with "all the ungodly".

And this is how you explain how Jesus can be the "Propitiation not for ours only, but for the sins of all the ungodly"?

It brought the fullness of salvation to those of faith AND condemned those who are not of faith going all the way back to Adam and Eve and all the way through to the last who will believe. Thus scripture states the propitiation of Christ is applied BY/THROUGH faith, even for those awaiting the shedding of His blood to FULLY atone for their sins and wash them away their sins rather than only cover them. It is not automatically given to anyone, otherwise even those who WILL be of faith are already saved and there is no need FOR faith.

Jesus did not actually turn aside God's wrath or take away anyone's sin when He died.
God's wrath was still beating down on all who at that time were still unbelievers, even if their faith was a known future faith, God's wrath would not be turned aside from even them, nor their sins removed, until the moment they profess faith. If Jesus' death did fully atone for and remove the known believers sin at the time of His death, then there is no need for faith according to your statements. It would be seen as being "automatically given" to those who will in the future be saved and thus removing the need for faith.
Also Jesus' death condemned "all the ungodly" who had already perished in their sin prior to His death on the cross and no application of propitiation could be given to them.

Have I accurately stated what you believe?

 

[DHK]

Let's close this thread, now well over 30 pages.
Please start a new one if so desired.