Who first called the the papal power antichrist?

[BobRyan]

Ok, so you have a futurist interpretation of things. I understand. I believe the papacy is THE antichrist, fullfilling the prophecies concerning the son of perdition.The holy place, the temple of God, would not be a rebuilt temple but the church of God which is properly the temple of God.

The son of perdition in 2Thess 2 not only displays himself as being God (something the Popes also claimed in the dark ages -- God on earth) - but also does great signs and wonders -- something the Papacy has not done.

Also the 1John 2 and 3 reference to Antichrist is that "they have already come" and the Papacy had not yet started at that time. So while it is one form of what the NT calls "antichrist" I don't know that you can assign all of the antichrist references to the Papacy as the primary fulfillment.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[webdog]

Just noticed it's your birthday, Bob. Happy Birthday!

 

[Eliyahu]

The son of perdition in 2Thess 2 not only displays himself as being God (something the Popes also claimed in the dark ages -- God on earth) - but also does great signs and wonders -- something the Papacy has not done.

Also the 1John 2 and 3 reference to Antichrist is that "they have already come" and the Papacy had not yet started at that time. So while it is one form of what the NT calls "antichrist" I don't know that you can assign all of the antichrist references to the Papacy as the primary fulfillment.

in Christ,

Bob

Correct, unless Apostle Peter, the RCC allegedly, so-called first Pope, was the Anti-Christ.

Happy Birthday to You Bob !

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

In looking a little closer at the Dante (1265-1321) and Petrarch (1304-1374) references there are some other interesting allusions in Canto XIX and Sonnet 138.

Although both poets make biting commentaries against the corruption in the Renaissance church:

1. When upbraiding Pope Nicholas III, Dante says "... now tell me how much treasure Our Lord required of St. Peter, before he put the keys into his keeping?..." A little while later Dante tells Nicholas of his (Dante's) "... reverence for the Great Keys thou (Nicholas) wieldest in the glad life..." Dante seems to be saying that the keys that Jesus gave to Peter are the same keys that Nicholas had responsibility for in the 1300's.

Is Dante saying that the church that Jesus established on the confession of Peter's faith is - good, bad, or indifferent - the same church of Pope Nicholas III? If not, why does Dante mention "the keys" in reference to both Peter and Nicholas?

2. In the words "Founded in chaste and humble poverty,... against your founders: where is your hope?" Petrarch seems to be reminding the church leaders of his day of their pure and unpretentious beginnings.

Is Petrarch drawing a direct line from the modest beginnings of the church to the debased church of the 14th century? From the church of the Apostles to the RCC? Were the Apostles ("the founders") the first in the line of the Popes? If not, then what do these words mean?

CA

 

[BobRyan]

Correct, unless Apostle Peter, the RCC allegedly, so-called first Pope, was the Anti-Christ.

Happy Birthday to You Bob !

Thanks --

I am in India at the moment so I am waiting to get home to celebrate with my family

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE,

FYI. The Petrach reference is 138, not 108: Petrarch:The Canzoniere

In Petrach, in sonnet 138, there seems to be a general tone of corruption connected to Constantine rather than a specific mention of wealth. Nonetheless, I don't see the Constantine = first pope connection.

Please let me know how you get that connection from this sonnet.

Thanks.

CA

GE

Yes no fine. You are correct. Constantine=first pope-X
I enjoy your responses - you know what you're talking - much appreciated!

To Eliyahu: When I say the pope is antichrist I almost say it as a kind of confession (of faith). In more 'doctrinal' language I should say I believe the 'pope-dom' or 'papal system' - even better, popish doctrine, represents antichrist. I very firmly believe it, and find myself in best of Protestant company.

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

And thank you for bringing up Dante and Petrarch. It gave me a reason to re-read The Divine Comedy and become acquainted with Petrarch.

CA

 

[Eliyahu]

GE
To Eliyahu: When I say the pope is antichrist I almost say it as a kind of confession (of faith). In more 'doctrinal' language I should say I believe the 'pope-dom' or 'papal system' - even better, popish doctrine, represents antichrist. I very firmly believe it, and find myself in best of Protestant company.

I am very sure the Pope, The Anti-Christ mentioned in Mt 24:15- and 2 Thess 2:4-11, and in Revelation 13, has not showed up yet. I was carefully watching over the process of selecting the Pope last time when they elected Joseph Ratzinger.

This is Real, and will happen surely, and the whole world will be mad to follow him.

 

[BobRyan]

I should say I believe the 'pope-dom' or 'papal system' -

"Papacy" may be the word you are looking for -