Who first called the the papal power antichrist?

[ReformedBaptist]

Oh, I'm sure you will, and I'm also sure it's not going to be anything that I haven't read before. (You see, I too went through a phase where I thought the RCC was the "Whore of Bablyon" and that the pope was "antichrist"...back when I was still reading my Chick comics and gracing my bookshelves with the tomes of Dave Hunt and Alexander Hislop.)

You can take stabs at whoever you wish. I got the impression I was being asked what I believe, and I have stated to a very small degree why. I am not trying to convince you the papacy is Antichrist. But it believe it is. I believe I have biblical suport for it, historical support, and ecclesiastical support. Meaning: The bible guides me to this belief, it is supported by facts of history, and many Christians throughout history have believed this. It's some some recent interent guy's idea. lol

I haven't read too many Chick comics, nor Dave Hunt's books, or Hislop. I have an great respect for John Gill, J.A. Wylie, Peter Felix, Richard Bennet (former RCC priest) and others who comment on the subject. Nor do I wish to be so dogmatic about it. After all, I could be wrong. One thing I know for certain, RCC theology is antichristian and hostile to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I also know that the RCC under its popes and times past (and present) have committed horrible atrocities against Christians, Jews, and mankind. It is a beast indeed, full of all fornication, adultery, blasphemy, and is drunk on the blood of the martys of Jesus.

I am amazed people have to be convinced the RCC is Antichrist and not the other way around. The pomp and riches are evidendent. They even wear scarlet and purple! lol How could I think otherwise with what the Aposltes said?

 

[Eliyahu]

I believe The Anti-Christ will come as the Pope of Roman Catholic, but in that case the Pope will be the Head of the Integrated World Religion which may embrace many Catholic divisions like Orthodox, COE, Episcopal, Coptic, Assyrian, Jewish. Some people say that the Pope as THE ANTI-Christ will be a Jew, especially from Dan Tribe.

Apostle Paul warned about the Anti-Christ ( 2 Thess 2:4-11), Jesus mentioned about him ( Mt 24:15-), but Apostle John mentioned about many anti-Christs ( Not the big one) then warned about The Anti-Christ ( 1 John 4)

I am sure that the Believers after the Early Church were taught about the Anti-Christ.

However, the linking the Pope of RCC with Anti-Christ may have started after the split in 1054.
So, I can see some glympse of it from the articles about Petrobrusians in 12 c.

Then there were many leaders who warned about the Pope of RCC, such as Dante, Wiclyffe, Luther, Wesley, etc.

One of the obvious warnings came from London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689.

1689 London Baptist Confession
Chapter 26: Of the Church. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. ( Colossians 1:18; Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 4:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9 )


Now, it is time for us to focus on the future, on how The Anti-Christ will appear.

Satan works very hard for the preparation of his coming.
First the collapse of the moral must take place, I believe. So, some denominations appoint gay pastors, already women pastors, abortion and marijuana are legalized, Adultery is not a crime but a matter of civil dispute, etc.

Satan is more dilligent than the Believers these days as the believers are lukewarm, and he works behind the Ecumenical Movement, thru the EU countries which are dominated by Catholics, trying to embrace Muslims and Buddhists, and Hinduists, etc.

If Jesus Christ comes again to this world, will He have a summit meeting with the Pope, saying that you did a good job as my deputy ?

 

[BobRyan]

True. The Roman Empire continued on in its Eastern Half until Constantinople was sacked.

(And speaking of the 'Third Rome', I've read some who speculate that the "restrainer" was "taken out of the way" when the Romanov's ceased ruling Russia in 1917.)

At anyrate the continuation of the Roman Empire until the 1400s seems to mitigate against the whole papacy-is-the-man-of-sin business, and no one today really knows who the Thessalonians considered the restrainer to be.

That is simply wishful thinking. The "Holy Roman Empire" was not pagan as you seem to hope.

The Papacy began long before the 1400's as Catholic historians themselves will admit.

The "reason" that they began calling themselves "Pontiffs" in the 4th and 5th century had everything to do with their heritage from pagan Rome.

And the act of leaving the city of Rome to the Papacy is more the mark of the rise of that element.

in Daniel 7 we see the Pagan Roman empire split up - and we see the Papacy arise in it's place.

Even the RCC itself admits to this sequence of events.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Having said that - I don't think the 2Thess 2 "man of sin" is primarily the Pope -- I think that in the end-times this is Satan himself, impersonating Christ's second coming, seting up a kingdom on earth and performing great signs and wonders to the point that he calls fire down from heaven as we see in Rev 13..

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

He wasn't even that - he was a Unitarian pretending to be a Puritan.

GE
This book I read mentions Milton's great 'heresies'. Ja, you're right. He was a unitarian. But that was a problem for more Puritans than just Milton ... it was a case to crack for the period which still wasn't cracked. To be a unitarian today would be another issue altogether. Although highly respected, Milton wasn't 'officially' a theologian. More like a politician, when state and church were closely connected. But it doesn't make his 'heresy' acceptable. Let's take from the past what's good and build upon it the future - as Paul Kruger erelong president of the Zuid-Afrikaanse Republiek said. I'll take his advice despite I reckon him the most foolish of leaders we have had.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE,

How do you see this quote from Dante making the point that "one could say with Constantine originator of Roman Catholicism"?

In this verse and in the context of Canto 19 I don't see it, but maybe I'm missing something.

CA

GE

First, it is Milton, not I, who saw the connection from Dante who saw the connection.
Next, Dante's statement, "Ah Constantine, of how much ill was cause Not thy conversion, but those rich domains That the first wealthy pope received of thee.... Isn't that the point that one could say with, Constantine originator of Roman Catholicism? I can't be much clearer, can it?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And Milton underwrites his observation with two more 'wise' of the Roman Catholics.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu
"I believe The Anti-Christ will come as the Pope of Roman Catholic,"

GE
I believe The Anti-Christ has been the pope since the first pope, and the point of this thread was that Constantine was the first pope.
Then I don't ask for prophecies or worldly alliances or historic indications to the effect, because the fullness of each and every 'requirement' or 'quality' that makes the antichrist the antichrist, has consistently been the papal power's. This very moment the Pope is antichrist in no less a degree than before or after he will be.

 

[Matt Black]

Er...no. Constantine was the first Christian Emperor - and even that was in some doubt until just before his death. I think you'll find that a chap called Sylvester was the Pope at that time.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I believe The Anti-Christ will come as the Pope of Roman Catholic, but in that case the Pope will be the Head of the Integrated World Religion which may embrace many Catholic divisions like Orthodox, COE, Episcopal, Coptic, Assyrian, Jewish. Some people say that the Pope as THE ANTI-Christ will be a Jew, especially from Dan Tribe.

Apostle Paul warned about the Anti-Christ ( 2 Thess 2:4-11), Jesus mentioned about him ( Mt 24:15-), but Apostle John mentioned about many anti-Christs ( Not the big one) then warned about The Anti-Christ ( 1 John 4)

I am sure that the Believers after the Early Church were taught about the Anti-Christ.

However, the linking the Pope of RCC with Anti-Christ may have started after the split in 1054.
So, I can see some glympse of it from the articles about Petrobrusians in 12 c.

Then there were many leaders who warned about the Pope of RCC, such as Dante, Wiclyffe, Luther, Wesley, etc.

One of the obvious warnings came from London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689.

1689 London Baptist Confession
Chapter 26: Of the Church. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. ( Colossians 1:18; Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 4:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9 )


Now, it is time for us to focus on the future, on how The Anti-Christ will appear.

Satan works very hard for the preparation of his coming.
First the collapse of the moral must take place, I believe. So, some denominations appoint gay pastors, already women pastors, abortion and marijuana are legalized, Adultery is not a crime but a matter of civil dispute, etc.

Satan is more dilligent than the Believers these days as the believers are lukewarm, and he works behind the Ecumenical Movement, thru the EU countries which are dominated by Catholics, trying to embrace Muslims and Buddhists, and Hinduists, etc.

If Jesus Christ comes again to this world, will He have a summit meeting with the Pope, saying that you did a good job as my deputy ?

I am curious why you don't think the papal system is the Antichrist and thus already appeared?

 

[Eliyahu]

I am curious why you don't think the papal system is the Antichrist and thus already appeared?

I was talking about the Person, Anti-Christ. I have no doubt that the Papal system is the anti-christ, but there will come the time when the Person of Perdition will physically show up on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

In 1995 there started the discussion on the Roadmap for the Peace Accord for Israel-PLO etc. then around 2002 ( I cannot recall the exact timing) there was the Oslo Agreement which was backed by many EU countries and Vatican. Behind that deal, there were several points agreed among the parties.

- Israel will have the right to live peacefully in the Land of Israel
- Jerualem will become the International City of Freedom
- Jerusalem will be protected by UN or multinational peace keeping forces.
- Temple Mount which is occupied by Palestinians as Dome of Rock will be handed over to Vatican ( so that Vatican may be relocated to Temple Mount as per their cherished desire)
- Palestine will have the State-ship
- The peace of Israel will be protected by EU peace keeping forces ( EU is dominated by Roman Catholics- later Israel will realize their betrayal)
- Jerusalem will have its own airport and any visitors will be able to visit there without the permission from Israel government, but virtually under the control of Vatican.
- The house of King David in Jerusalem will be handed over to Vatican in exchange for the Synagogue in Spain which was confiscated around 16 century by Catholics.

Eventually this will fulfill the prophecy by Jesus ( Mt 24:15-) and by Paul ( 2 Thess 2:4-12) so that the Man of Perdition will stand up at the Holy Place, and the whole world are subject to bowing to him.

That time has not come yet, that Person of Perdition, THE ANTICHRIST has not come yet. Satan is very much dilligent in preparation for that, and the spirits of many people do not recognize such movement.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I was talking about the Person, Anti-Christ. I have no doubt that the Papal system is the anti-christ, but there will come the time when the Person of Perdition will physically show up on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

In 1995 there started the discussion on the Roadmap for the Peace Accord for Israel-PLO etc. then around 2002 ( I cannot recall the exact timing) there was the Oslo Agreement which was backed by many EU countries and Vatican. Behind that deal, there were several points agreed among the parties.

- Israel will have the right to live peacefully in the Land of Israel
- Jerualem will become the International City of Freedom
- Jerusalem will be protected by UN or multinational peace keeping forces.
- Temple Mount which is occupied by Palestinians as Dome of Rock will be handed over to Vatican ( so that Vatican may be relocated to Temple Mount as per their cherished desire)
- Palestine will have the State-ship
- The peace of Israel will be protected by EU peace keeping forces ( EU is dominated by Roman Catholics- later Israel will realize their betrayal)
- Jerusalem will have its own airport and any visitors will be able to visit there without the permission from Israel government, but virtually under the control of Vatican.
- The house of King David in Jerusalem will be handed over to Vatican in exchange for the Synagogue in Spain which was confiscated around 16 century by Catholics.

Eventually this will fulfill the prophecy by Jesus ( Mt 24:15-) and by Paul ( 2 Thess 2:4-12) so that the Man of Perdition will stand up at the Holy Place, and the whole world are subject to bowing to him.

That time has not come yet, that Person of Perdition, THE ANTICHRIST has not come yet. Satan is very much dilligent in preparation for that, and the spirits of many people do not recognize such movement.

Ok, so you have a futurist interpretation of things. I understand. I believe the papacy is THE antichrist, fullfilling the prophecies concerning the son of perdition.The holy place, the temple of God, would not be a rebuilt temple but the church of God which is properly the temple of God.

 

[Eliyahu]

Ok, so you have a futurist interpretation of things. I understand. I believe the papacy is THE antichrist, fullfilling the prophecies concerning the son of perdition.The holy place, the temple of God, would not be a rebuilt temple but the church of God which is properly the temple of God.

The pastor at whose srmon I was saved interpret the Bible as you do. He believes every church will have to have a certain picture or photos of the Pope so that they may pay respect to the Anti-Christ
But I believe the Anti-Christ will come and show up literally at the Temple Mount. He will persecute the people really and without the permission ( like 666) from this Beast one can hardly survive.

The whole interpretation will have to be checked with the actual progress of the situations.
We must realize that RCC embraces so many denominations and religions, and if the True believers reject them, they will denounce them as Heretics.

 

[BobRyan]

I think it is true that the Papacy fulfills some of the characteristics assigned to the antichrist group. John said many antichrists were already at work in 1John 2 and 3. In the case of the "man of sin" in 2Thess 2 some of the attributes assigned to apply to the papacy along with the apostacy of the Christian church that is predicted in 2thess2 future to the time of Pauil.

But even in that case the ultimate fulfillment is in the wonders and miracles worked by Satan in the last days as he presents his strong delusion regarding the counterfeit coming of Christ,

Bob

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

GE

First, it is Milton, not I, who saw the connection from Dante who saw the connection.
Next, Dante's statement, "Ah Constantine, of how much ill was cause Not thy conversion, but those rich domains That the first wealthy pope received of thee.... Isn't that the point that one could say with, Constantine originator of Roman Catholicism? I can't be much clearer, can it?

GE,

You are correct that Milton is passing along a "connection" made by Dante. The connection is wealth = corruption, however, not Constantine = first pope.

In this verse Dante is referencing The Donation of Constantine wherein the Emperor Constantine recounts his healing from leprosy and conversion to Christianity ("For we wish you to know, as we have... arrived at the pure faith of the Christians."); finds the Church and Pope Sylvester I instrumental in his healing and conversion ("And when, the blessed Sylvester preaching them, I perceived these things, and learned that by the kindness of St. Peter himself I had been entirely restored to health..."); and gives the major Christian religious institutions of the empire to the Roman See ("And we ordain and decree that he shall have the supremacy as well over the four chief seats... and chief over, all the priests of the whole world...")

Dante saw in this, not the beginning of the Catholic Church, but the beginnings of corruption in the Catholic Church. Sylvester was not the first pope, he was - according to the Donation - the first wealthy pope.

(Let us leave aside for now the finding later that the Donation was a forgery, Dante's point is that wealth = corruption.)

Thus, an annotated version of the verse might read:

"Ah Constantine, of how much ill was cause
Not thy conversion (recounted in the first half of the Donation)
but those rich domains (recounted in the second half of the Donation)
That the first wealthy pope (Sylvester I) received of thee (Constantine)."

CA

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The pastor at whose srmon I was saved interpret the Bible as you do. He believes every church will have to have a certain picture or photos of the Pope so that they may pay respect to the Anti-Christ
But I believe the Anti-Christ will come and show up literally at the Temple Mount. He will persecute the people really and without the permission ( like 666) from this Beast one can hardly survive.

The whole interpretation will have to be checked with the actual progress of the situations.
We must realize that RCC embraces so many denominations and religions, and if the True believers reject them, they will denounce them as Heretics.

GE
This has all the time been going on and still is going on and in future will onle exelerate, Eliyahu. The pope is antichrist, finish en klaar! His reign will only be ended with the Coming of Christ. I think you know that.

 

[Eliyahu]

GE
This has all the time been going on and still is going on and in future will onle exelerate, Eliyahu. The pope is antichrist, finish en klaar! His reign will only be ended with the Coming of Christ. I think you know that.

You should know that I am more specific and in more detail.
If the Pope has been the Anti-Christ throughout the ages, which pope was he? For each era, the Pope has been the anti-christ, but The Anti-Christ has not shown up yet, but will show up indeed. The ANTI-CHRIST will be the Beast shown in the Revelation, and he will not be the Head of only Roman Religion but also of the whole religions throughout the world, working closely with the World Chancellor of the United Nations, declaring the peace all over the world, and will be admired by billions of people. Buddhism will not be a problem because they are another idol worshippers as RCC. Muslim will need a great help as they will be stigmatized as terrorists, and the Pope will extend his "merciful" hands to the Muslims with the Fatima spirit since the Kadija ( Mohamed's wife) was the Catholic widow. All the other christian denominations can be embraced thru Ecumenical movement. There will be a peace on the world.
The only problems are the fundamental Christians like Baptists and Brethren. Baptists called themselves and each other " Brethren" too. Many Wesleyans and some Presbyterians will not join the World Religion but will fight the Anti-Christ. Remember this. not only the True Christian believers but also the heretic cults will struggle against the World Religion and will be persecuted. But the main target will be the True Christian believers but they will be protected by their Lord.

Vatican will move to Jerusalem as they planned for long time, and the Pope will sit and stand on the Temple Mount as Jesus predicted ( Mt 24:15-) and Paul mentioned ( 2 Thess 2:4-11). All things are well under way according to the Oslo Agreement.
Look at the sky and forcast the weather and prophesy for the future. Satan works very hard, harder than the true believers. He works even today, thru many human minds.

 

[skypair]

Y'all,

I think we give AC too much credit. We are looking for a charismatic intellectual religious and military leader when in fact...

1) Anyone who has access to a computer can appear to be wise as God ...

2) If one controls the EU, one not only can bring countries into that union without war but can overthrow their "kings"...

3) The Pope is "charismatic" by definition ...

4) And if he WAS Jewish, he worships a God his fathers didn't know and has "disposable" wealth beyond belief!

skypair

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

GE
Extract from, Milton, Poetical Works, Oxford University Press 1979, edited by Douglas Bush...

(Milton of Petrach continues, GE)
“So in his 20. Canto of Paradise [55-60] he makes the like complaint, and Petrach seconds him in the same mind in his 108. Sonnet which is wiped out by the Inquisitor in some editions; speaking of the Roman Antichrist as merely bred up by Constantine:

Petrach: Founded in chaste and humble poverty,
‘Gainst them that raised thee dost thou lift thy horn,
Impudent whore, where hast thou placed thy hope?
In thy adulterers, or thy ill-got wealth?
Another Constantine comes not in haste.

GE,

FYI. The Petrach reference is 138, not 108: Petrarch:The Canzoniere

In Petrach, in sonnet 138, there seems to be a general tone of corruption connected to Constantine rather than a specific mention of wealth. Nonetheless, I don't see the Constantine = first pope connection.

Please let me know how you get that connection from this sonnet.

Thanks.

CA

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

GE, et al,

Here is Dante's Canto 19 for the full context of...

"Ah Constantine, of how much ill was cause
Not thy conversion but those rich domains
That the first wealthy pope received of thee."

CA