Who & How We Are Drawn to the Son

[Hark]

@AustinC "God drags them to himself is the literal meaning. If we go with draw it should be understood as though it were a bucket placed in the well that catches the water and pulls it up and out of the well. In either case, it is all God's effort and none of the human beings effort." ~ AustinC

@MC "Explain John 12:32 " ~MB

I believe it is important to differentiate from scripture as testifying from Who draws men unto the Son from "how" men will be drawn unto the Son.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. ~ KJV

John 12:33 is Jesus testifying to what manner He should die which was on the cross in verse 32. This was not Jesus saying He is the One doing the drawing, nor is Jesus saying that is when sinners will be saved by seeing Him on the cross, but "how" sinners will be saved by Him being on the cross, and yet there is more involved in how this drawing is being done. Compare this in cross reference with John 3:13-15;

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. ~ KJV

So His ascension, which was after His resurrection by Him dying on the cross is how this drawing unto the Son was being done by the Father Who Jesus said plainly as the One doing the drawing in according to His will since the father is the One that gives certain sinners to the Son to be saved by the Son..

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.....

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. ~ KJV

So applying what Jesus actually meant in John 12:32 has to be with John 12:33 in how this drawing was to be done, but He is not saying "when" that drawing will be done unto the Son for men to be saved nor by Who this drawing will be done, when obviously, He is addressing one of the things that will happen to Him for how men will be drawn unto Himself, the Son.

Thank you both for sharing & asking questions.

May God bless you both in the edification of Jesus Christ in His words so we may all grow more in the knowledge of Him in Christ's love.

 

[SavedByGrace]

A famous text (John 6:44) that has been misued by the reformed over the years, to promote their false teaching, that God is only interested in the salvation of "the elect", and it is only them that He "draws" to the Lord Jesus for their salvation. I note that some suggest that the Greek verb, ἑλκύω, should be transalted in English as "drag", here. Firstly, I don't see any of the English versions chose "drag" in this verse, John 6:44 Parallel: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. The CEV is the closest to "drag", but translating, "makes them want to come". While it is true that the Greek word can mean "drag", this is not the only meaning. In fact, it is also used with a "notion of force or exertion". But, why would God need to "force" the "elect", Who He has already "chosen" to salvation? The idea of "forcing and exertion", or "draging", shows that they were not "willing" to go to the Lord, so He "forced" them to! The English dictionary defines "force" as, "make (someone) do something against their will"! This is completely against the Teachings of the Holy Bible. The Bible tells sinners, to "choose", and "seek" the Lord, showing that their "will" has to be in action. ἑλκύω, has another meaning, which I believe better suits the passages in question, it is also used for, "draw to oneself, attract". In Romans 3:25, it says, "God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood". And in the next verse, "...so that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus". Jesus Christ is "offered" as a "sin-offering" to the world of lost sinners. Only those who place their faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord, and Justified before God!

 

[Van]

On and on, the simple obvious truth is presented as some sort of a mystery.

Who draws individuals to Christ? John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

So why was this question asked?

How are we drawn to Christ. By hearing of the lovingkindness of Christ (part of the gospel) and being attracted by God's love for us. We love Him because He first loved us.

So why was this question asked?

 

[Hark]

A famous text (John 6:44) that has been misused by the reformed over the years, to promote their false teaching, that God is only interested in the salvation of "the elect", and it is only them that He "draws" to the Lord Jesus for their salvation. I note that some suggest that the Greek verb, ἑλκύω, should be translated in English as "drag", here. Firstly, I don't see any of the English versions chose "drag" in this verse, John 6:44 Parallel: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. The CEV is the closest to "drag", but translating, "makes them want to come". While it is true that the Greek word can mean "drag", this is not the only meaning. In fact, it is also used with a "notion of force or exertion". But, why would God need to "force" the "elect", Who He has already "chosen" to salvation? The idea of "forcing and exertion", or "dragging", shows that they were not "willing" to go to the Lord, so He "forced" them to! The English dictionary defines "force" as, "make (someone) do something against their will"! This is completely against the Teachings of the Holy Bible. The Bible tells sinners, to "choose", and "seek" the Lord, showing that their "will" has to be in action. ἑλκύω, has another meaning, which I believe better suits the passages in question, it is also used for, "draw to oneself, attract". In Romans 3:25, it says, "God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood". And in the next verse, "...so that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus". Jesus Christ is "offered" as a "sin-offering" to the world of lost sinners. Only those who place their faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord, and Justified before God!

Thank you for sharing your knowledge from the Greek & its suggestive usage.

There is the truth of how sin separates us from God. No one can approach the holy God to be with Him because of sin as it drives us away. So in that sense of the meaning from the Greek word, I can understand how & why "drag" would apply towards our physical fallen sinful nature as God is drawing our spirits to the Son to reveal His Son to us so we can believe in Him to be saved. Hence now is the time for salvation in the land of the living rather than afterwards when sinners die in unbelief where the full fruit of sin drives them away from God & all that is good, which is hell & eventually, the lake of fire..

Since our believing in Him is a work of God too, is why no one can boast in the flesh, as if they had saved themselves by believing in Him, not by their intellect nor by their will, but by the grace of God. John 1:12-13 & John 3:18-21

Something to thank the Father for in Jesus's name. Amen.

Thank you again for sharing.

 

[Hark]

On and on, the simple obvious truth is presented as some sort of a mystery.

Who draws individuals to Christ? John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

So why was this question asked?

How are we drawn to Christ. By hearing of the lovingkindness of Christ (part of the gospel) and being attracted by God's love for us. We love Him because He first loved us.

So why was this question asked?

There is a false saying going around in churches that it is the Holy Spirit that draws men unto the Son but scripture, as you say, testifies plainly otherwise as giving that sole credit to the Father in doing the drawing.

Sometimes from this false saying, churches lead congregation in prayer for the Father to send the Holy Spirit to the assembly to draw men unto the Son.

Problem is, not only does it goes against scripture as to Who does the actual drawing, but that kind of prayer denies the Holy Spirit in us with us being in that worship place.

And to believe the Holy Spirit has to be in the worship place to effect this drawing in spite of Him being in us, is to invoke the spirits of the antichrist in suffering them to break through & mislead many astray with their visitations by that visible outward phenomenon whereby saved believers are seduced into chasing after them to receive by a sensational sign in the flesh as the world does in how they receive spirits. John 14:17

This is the hypocrisy prophesied in the falling away from the faith in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 whereby they acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is in them and yet deny Him by seeking to receive Him again as if He is not in us at all in hypocrisy.

So it is not a small thing when a little leaven can leaven a whole lump into apostasy. It is false sayings like that is why the "holy laughter" movement broke out across the denominations from the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches to Catholic & Protestant churches nationwide as reported by the 700 Club in 1997.

I dare say because of the modified Nicene creed in 381 A.D. & certain hymnals addressing the Holy Spirit in worship & even asking Him to fall on them again or praying for Him be in the worship place where the spirit of the antichrist dwells at ( 1 John 4:1-4 ) is why that apostasy is spreading in all the denomination churches today, albeit, it is by God's grace that it did not happen in all churches.. but it still can, because the iniquity is there for it to happen. Matthew 7:13-27

The solution to avoid that apostasy is to narrow the way back to the Son in worship in coming to God the father by; John 14:6 John 10:1 The consequence is being left behind in Luke 13:24-30.

So churches & believers need to stop praying for the Holy Spirit to be sent on believers to be around them before salvation when it is the Father that draws men unto the Son & sends promise of the Holy Spirit on believers at salvation when we come to & believe in Jesus Christ. John 6:35 in relation to John 14:6 for the promise in John 14:16-17 & confirmed again in John 14:25-26

Thank you for asking the question.

 

[Van]

Who draws individuals to Christ? John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

How are we drawn to Christ. By hearing of the lovingkindness of Christ (part of the gospel) and being attracted by God's love for us. We love Him because He first loved us.

 

[thomas15]

Sometimes you have to really dig deep to gain understanding.

 

[Yeshua1]

There is a false saying going around in churches that it is the Holy Spirit that draws men unto the Son but scripture, as you say, testifies plainly otherwise as giving that sole credit to the Father in doing the drawing.

Sometimes from this false saying, churches lead congregation in prayer for the Father to send the Holy Spirit to the assembly to draw men unto the Son.

Problem is, not only does it goes against scripture as to Who does the actual drawing, but that kind of prayer denies the Holy Spirit in us with us being in that worship place.

And to believe the Holy Spirit has to be in the worship place to effect this drawing in spite of Him being in us, is to invoke the spirits of the antichrist in suffering them to break through & mislead many astray with their visitations by that visible outward phenomenon whereby saved believers are seduced into chasing after them to receive by a sensational sign in the flesh as the world does in how they receive spirits. John 14:17

This is the hypocrisy prophesied in the falling away from the faith in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 whereby they acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is in them and yet deny Him by seeking to receive Him again as if He is not in us at all in hypocrisy.

So it is not a small thing when a little leaven can leaven a whole lump into apostasy. It is false sayings like that is why the "holy laughter" movement broke out across the denominations from the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches to Catholic & Protestant churches nationwide as reported by the 700 Club in 1997.

I dare say because of the modified Nicene creed in 381 A.D. & certain hymnals addressing the Holy Spirit in worship & even asking Him to fall on them again or praying for Him be in the worship place where the spirit of the antichrist dwells at ( 1 John 4:1-4 ) is why that apostasy is spreading in all the denomination churches today, albeit, it is by God's grace that it did not happen in all churches.. but it still can, because the iniquity is there for it to happen. Matthew 7:13-27

The solution to avoid that apostasy is to narrow the way back to the Son in worship in coming to God the father by; John 14:6 John 10:1 The consequence is being left behind in Luke 13:24-30.

So churches & believers need to stop praying for the Holy Spirit to be sent on believers to be around them before salvation when it is the Father that draws men unto the Son & sends promise of the Holy Spirit on believers at salvation when we come to & believe in Jesus Christ. John 6:35 in relation to John 14:6 for the promise in John 14:16-17 & confirmed again in John 14:25-26

Thank you for asking the question.

The Father draws the lost sinner unto Jesus for their salvation, but at that point its the working of the Holy Spirit to enable them to receive Jesus as Lord !

 

[Reformed1689]

A famous text (John 6:44) that has been misued by the reformed over the years, to promote their false teaching, that God is only interested in the salvation of "the elect", and it is only them that He "draws" to the Lord Jesus for their salvation. I note that some suggest that the Greek verb, ἑλκύω, should be transalted in English as "drag", here. Firstly, I don't see any of the English versions chose "drag" in this verse, John 6:44 Parallel: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. The CEV is the closest to "drag", but translating, "makes them want to come". While it is true that the Greek word can mean "drag", this is not the only meaning. In fact, it is also used with a "notion of force or exertion". But, why would God need to "force" the "elect", Who He has already "chosen" to salvation? The idea of "forcing and exertion", or "draging", shows that they were not "willing" to go to the Lord, so He "forced" them to! The English dictionary defines "force" as, "make (someone) do something against their will"! This is completely against the Teachings of the Holy Bible. The Bible tells sinners, to "choose", and "seek" the Lord, showing that their "will" has to be in action. ἑλκύω, has another meaning, which I believe better suits the passages in question, it is also used for, "draw to oneself, attract". In Romans 3:25, it says, "God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood". And in the next verse, "...so that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus". Jesus Christ is "offered" as a "sin-offering" to the world of lost sinners. Only those who place their faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord, and Justified before God!

The elect do go against their will at God's command. That is the point.

 

[Hark]

Sometimes you have to really dig deep to gain understanding.

I have found that when I am at my wits end, & I ask the Lord for help & wisdom in understanding His words & His will.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As the OP is now banned for 6 months this thread is closed.