Who is our brother

I have studied this question for 3 going on four years now so hopefully I can give some insight into my endless confusion on the topic

I find that it is extremely difficult to decide by the label a person carries whether or not they are a Christian or not. In fact I find it impossible because we don't know if that person actually holds the doctrine of the church or if they were raised in that church and don't know squat about the doctrine.

Now based on a broader view of "is a denominations doctrine itself biblical enough to consider it a Christian church?" First, we have to define what makes a Christian.

"...And it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians." Acts 11:26

I have to admit that I consider the definition of a Christian someone who is a follower (disciple) of Jesus Christ. I find that this makes it easier to distinguish what a "Christian" is in theological discussions.

So here is another revision of your question that I think is most appropriate for what you are trying to get at:

"Is a person saved if they prescribe to a particular denominational doctrine completely?"

This question can be answered much easier and with much less confusion...theoretically

First, you must define what makes a person saved. We know that this is anyone who has true faith in Jesus Christ for his or her salvation.

Second we must look at the doctrine that any particular church holds to and decide if we were to hold to this doctrine 100% would we have true faith in Jesus Christ as our personal savior? If the answer is yes, than I believe we know that those who hold to the doctrine are saved (of course we must stear clear of judging individuals).

To break it down more we have to realize we will run into an abundance of heretical teachings that would not differ a person from being saved- yet does a wrong doctrinal stance such as the belief in post-millennial rapture make a person unsaved? No.

I hope this helps some

Until Next Post, Adam

 

"When do those differences become more then just interpretational viewpionts and bound over into the heretical teaching that we are to beware of and oppose?"

Okay now for the second question:

Since we each hold to our own viewpoints (beliefs) they must be heretical or not. i.e. they must be true or not true. Since there are some 32,000 denominations today (at least that is what I read, i don't know if that is give/take any) our first question should be "How do we decide if a teaching is heretical?" After all among the many, many, different types of Baptists come teachings so far ranging that some don't even believe in the Bible! (though they are not true Baptists from what I am told)

From my understanding teaching are heretical if they do not hold to the absolute Truth we find in the Bible. IF a teaching is heretical or not is based on your own personal beliefs. Lutherans believe that infant baptism is valid and back it up with tradition and scripture, and we believe that is a heretical teaching- but who's to say God won't one day smack us upside along the head and say "What in the world were you thinking!?" And reveal to us what we totally missed. Though I doubt that will happen in this particular instance- it remains a possibility with any particular doctrine because doctrine is MAN made and NOT God made.

So really I believe that you have to decide on your own with prayer and discernment if a teaching is heretical or if it is within the bounds of absolute Truth.



Until Next Post, Adam

 

Lorelei, great question. This is a question we should all strive to answer, and
certainly should be careful. Not so much because we wouldn’t want to offend a group of
people, but because we wouldn’t want to answer a man according to his folly, giving
him/her a more false sense of security. It would be so wrong to confirm someone’s
conscience by affirming that they are in the same family as we are. All those that are
wrong of course are those who are not Baptist hehehe

I think that one of the most deceptive of words is the word denomination. It carries the idea that we are all have the same denominator, but slightly different beliefs. We are all just under a different label. Truly the Bible teaches ONE faith, ONE truth, ONE God ONE way to God, ONE not 32,000 (going by flyfree).

My observation shows that every single religion that is wrong has a common
denominator, and that is extra-biblical revelation. Take a look at any orginazation that is erroneous, and you will find it somewhere in their system. It will be there.

As flyfree pointed out, to have a difference on Eschatology may not separate us as brothers/sister. But what if your Eschatology teaches that you are part of the 144 thousand who are going to be in heaven! It says so in the Watchtower! (extra- biblical).

I think that flyfree is very wrong on something he said, “(of course we must steer clear of judging individuals)”. Jesus taught us to judge, He taught us the right way to judge in Matthew 7. And He spoke clearly of the fact that we should examine the fruits. The epistles are full of warnings, over and over they teach us to steer away of any false teachers, and anyone with a false gospel. And not to be yoked with them in the work of the Lord. A false gospel is certainly a measuring rod, any
gospel mixed with works is a false one, and one that is going to lead people to hell. That includes any idea that we can lose our Salvation, because then you trust in
yourself and not Christ. But what about the fruits? Should we stop at just the personal fruits? I know some Mormons who are extremely nice, good, loving people. Good fruits? How about examining the fruits that the whole organization produces. You must also be guilty by association.

Just my thought for now...hope this discussion continues.

If I may quote Dr. Bob Griffen from another discussion, I hope you don’t mind Dr Griffen if so please delete this.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Dr. Josh McDowell in his Handbook on Today's Religions lists characteristics of a
cult,
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>1) NEW TRUTH
2) NEW INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE
3) NEW JESUS
4)NEW CHRISTIANITY
5) NEW LANGUAGE
6) NEW GOD
7) NEW THEOLOGY
8) NEW LEADERSHIP
9) NEW SALVATION[/list]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

"I think that flyfree is very wrong on something he said, “(of course we must steer clear of judging individuals)”. Jesus taught us to judge, He taught us the right way to judge in Matthew 7."

Of course than again had you read my post in the context that it was written you would see that I was refering to the fact that we are not the judgers of souls.

More to come later.

Until Next Post, Adam

 

We are to Judge them to determine lost/saved.

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

Hi Jesus!

 

We judge fruits, not salvation. We can't see hearts so that is impossible. We can see fruits.

Sue

 

Let me point out that I am not Jesus. I will point out why I believe we are to judge a person’s salvation. Lets look at what Paul says in the book of 2Cor 6:14-16 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with anunbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?
NIV

How are we to know who the unbelievers are and who they are not? Judgment comes
into play. Probably a better term would be discernment. Sometimes we must really
analyze what we have before us to determine lost/saved. And in this particular text Paul
was teaching that we should not be yoked together with unbelievers. So it is
possible and right to try to determine if someone is an unbeliever. Now it only becomes harder when someone claims to be a Christian. Like I posted above, one of Paul
barometers is the understanding of the gospel. If that is wrong, then that is the first big sign someone is still lost. Mormons claim to be saved. JW’s Claim to be saved. Catholics claim to be saved. Charismatics claim to be saved. So we must judge to determine if faith in such doctrines are within the guidelines of the Bible. Jesus made it clear to the Pharisees who were the most religious group of the day. Jesus said of them that their father was the devil(John 8:44). Notice this very important fact, Jesus did not make His statements to an individual person, but to a whole group. A whole religious organization known as Phariseeism who thought they were going to heaven because of Abraham. They knew the OT, they were well educated in the Law of Moses. Yet Jesus told them they were lost. Paul tells us also not to work with those who are unbelievers. Please understand I am not advocating the hyper-seperationist idea that we should be a bunch of self-righteous snobby Christians. We should witness to them, not be yoked with them. And God is the Final Judge. And he don’t go by fruits, regardless of what those fruits are. He knows what they did with Jesus (the Biblical Jesus)

And Lorelei brought out Gal. 1:8 - those are pretty strong statements Paul makes. The Gospel of Salvation has nothing to do with works. So if a group of people claim that it is, either by baptism, speaking in tongues, or simply trying to maintain it then it is not the Gospel of the Bible. Let him be accursed.

If I may, I would like to be a bit more pointed in my analysis of the extra-biblical. As already mentioned, Catholics and Mormons.

Catholics = The pope can still speak on God’s behalf bringing new revelations from God to the people. They also have the 14 extra books they call the Bible. The Church is the final authority.

Mormons = KJV, Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, Pearl of Great price, and whatever their priestly order receives from God.

JW = Watchtower is more of a Bible than their New World Translation.

Pentecostal = Anytime someone speaks in tongues. Anytime someone dies goes to hell
and comes back to tell about it.

All other mainstream denominations who believes that not all the Bible is true, some errs are found along with contradictions also speaks of extra-biblical because they are trusting what they want in their own mind or in something like evolution to fill in the gaps. Only that leaves more gaps!

Ezra 4:1-5 When the enemies of Judah and Benjamin heard that the exiles were building a temple for the LORD, the God of Israel, they came to Zerubbabel and to the heads of the families and said, "Let us help you build because, like you, we seek your God and have been sacrificing to him since the time of Esarhaddon king of Assyria, who brought us here." But Zerubbabel, Jeshua and the rest of the heads of the families of Israel answered, "You have no part with us in building a temple to our God. We alone will build it for the LORD, the God of Israel, as King Cyrus, the king of Persia, commanded us." Then the peoples around them set out to discourage the people of Judah and make them afraid to go on building. They hired counselors to work against them and frustrate their plans during the entire reign of Cyrus king of Persia and down to the reign of Darius king of Persia.
NIV

Again, good discussion.

Chet

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

And again I respectfully disagree.

You need to decide within what you said how far you are willing to go. For instance you say that we are not to work with unbelievers- I'd have to say that probably the majority if not all people here (especially missionaries are in trouble). That is if you take that to its extreme- thus you must decide what to interpert out of scripture.

When we are not suppose to be yoked together with unbelievers that is refering to marriage.

Now you have just said that Catholics, JW's, Mormons, Penecostal, Lutherans, CRC, and many others are unsaved. I agree with you on some disagree with you on others. (and we are talking about these churches as a whole).

Why?

This is what I posted on another thread a while back to which I have yet to recieve well thought out rebuttals to:

"I'm curious- does the ability to decifer the intellectual mysteries of the Bible and contemplate perfect theological standards decide ones salvation?

Seriously- does comprending the mode of salvational grace determine one's permanent home?

If I dont hold to the correct views of hamartiology, soteriology, zoelogy, etc am I destined to the "pit of hell"?

Will we ever be able to determine beyond any argueable doubt that a certian view of denominational Christianity is the "correct view"?

"It is easy to understand God- as long as you don't try to explain Him." - Joseph Joubert

..."

Lorelei brought up an excellent point- how can you claim to know who is saved and unsaved? Can you look into their hearts?

Can we look at their works and their testimony and decide from that? If someone says I believe in Jesus Christ for my salvation through faith are we given the authority to tell them they are not saved?

Until Next Post, Adam

 

Lorelei- Yes we must watch out for false teachings and rebuke them. I definitely don't advocate that we let people go on believing false doctrine. Yet I believe we have to be very careful in what we rebuke. Do Baptists hold to perfect doctrine? No. The very term doctrine indicates that it will have fallicies because it is man made not God made.

If I was tolerant about what I believed I can garuntee you I would have not been rebaptized.

I believe to decide if a particular doctrine is false we must individually turn to our Bibles and to God and decide individually what God is saying to us through His Word and through prayer. Because doctrine is an interpertation we will never know if what it speeks of is Truth. Only the Bible is Truth.

Until Next Post, Adam

 

If someone tells me he or she is Christian, I treat them as if that was the truth until it becomes clear one way or the other. As mentioned above, the fruit of the Spirit becomes quite clear eventually.

I also try to keep in mind, as a country girl, that young fruit trees don't bear fruit. A little maturity is needed. But, if after some time....

At any rate, I learned long ago that it is not the denomination that counts nearly as much as the pastor. I am talking about basic Christian churches, not cults etc. I live in the area of the Sierra Nevada foothills which seems to have attracted a number of aging hippies who have all started their own churches, some with denominational affiliations.

I can go to one church and 'claim the promises of God,' or to another an be healed every Sunday. I have heard from one 'mainline' preacher that Revelation teaches that Jesus shoots sparks and fire out of His eyes. Down the road a bit, the Holy Spirit must do their bidding regularly as they have scheduled revivals. We walked out of one service which went 'health and wealth' (If you are walking with God you will not be sick and you will increase your worldly wealth.) We figured if Jesus and Paul would not be accepted there (poverty and a 'thorn in the flesh'), then we were not interested either. Then there was the one where everyone got up at the same time and, on command, starts babbling away in 'tongues.'

AND YET, I know people who attend and/or belong to each of these churches who appears to me to be a true believer and brother or sister in the Lord! Still, for me, I need to be someplace where the teaching is a little more straightforward and theologically mature. But God has sprinkled us, truly, like salt -- in so many places.

So if someone says "I'm a Christian," I will ask where they attend church. As long as it is not Mormon or JW, etc., I will take them at their word until the Holy Spirit Himself reveals otherwise through their lives and actions.

 

Hi Flyfree

Flyfree said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When we are not suppose to be yoked together with unbelievers that
is referring to marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you give us an exegesis on this
passage explaining where in context Paul is referring to marriage? And even if this is only referring to marriage, We still not left with the task of judging if they are believers or unbelievers?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Seriously- does comprehending the mode of salvational grace determine one's
permanent home?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to Paul, Yes. Salvation is only of grace. There is no other mode.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If I dont hold to the correct views of hamartiology, soteriology, zoelogy, etc am I destined to the "pit of hell"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hamartiology = ? zoelogy = ? soteriology = yes. Now is it possible that a person who
truly was saved just be misunderstood on Baptism? Possible. But this goes back to fruits. If that person truly thinks that baptism is needed before they can be saved, then are they trusting in their works or in the complete work of Christ.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Will we ever be able to determine beyond any argueable doubt that a certain view of denominational Christianity is the "correct view"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe so. The Bible is not a mystery. It is the revelation of God given to us to
understand. Sometimes study must proceed conclusions, but we can measure the
denominational theology in light of the truth found in the Bible. Paul used the phrase “I would not want you to be ignorant...” Several times. We can know, and in most cases it is obvious but we don’t want to come out from among them and be separate.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Can we look at their works and their testimony and decide from that? If someone
says I believe in Jesus Christ for my salvation through faith are we given the authority to tell them they are not saved?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Christ gave us the authority to preach the Gospel. I will preach the Gospel to all those who do not believe the right way of Salvation. Remember, Mormons will say they believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation through faith. What matters is what they believe. So I will question them further. To be honest, I usually always ask the question. “what church do you attend?” that will tell me right off the bat what I may be dealing with.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>. Because doctrine is an interpretation we will never know if what it speeks of is Truth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

interpretation is another deceptive terminology. People always fall back on that by simply saying, “that’s your interpretation”. The Bible is not written in some mystical form for us to interpret. There is only one right interpretation - therefore only one interpretation. The rest is just all misunderstandings.

Helen I enjoyed your thoughts, let me ask you, how far are you willing to go? You
say you will treat them as if they were until the fruit was ripe. Would you call them brother and sister? And what would you call a “Basic Christian Church?”

P.S. There is a question for ya in the evolution forum. Under "Recommended Sources".

Perhaps we should talk about the fruits in the organizations I mentioned in the earlier
post.

God Bless!!

2 John 9-11 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
NIV

 

"Hi Flyfree"

You say that like it is a bad thing?!?

"Could you give us an exegesis on this
passage explaining where in context Paul is referring to marriage?"

When I get back from seminary.

"Seriously- does comprehending the mode of salvational grace determine one's
permanent home?

According to Paul, Yes. Salvation is only of grace. There is no other mode."

Thank you for informing me that salvation is intellectual and not spiritual. I didn't know that you saved yourself. I for one don't fully comprehend God's grace and love of me.

"hamartiology = ? zoelogy = ? soteriology = yes. Now is it possible that a person who
truly was saved just be misunderstood on Baptism? Possible. But this goes back to fruits. If that person truly thinks that baptism is needed before they can be saved, then are they trusting in their works or in the complete work of Christ."

Debatable Let me ask you if you think the person in this situation is saved assuming that we can see in their heart and this is what they believe:

John Doe was baptized as an infant in a CRC church. John believes that God saved him through grace in his baptism, and God gave him *faith* in his baptism. John believes in his heart that he was saved at the time of his baptism and he believes that it is his faith in Jesus Christ through the grace of God that he is saved. Is John really saved?

"I believe so. The Bible is not a mystery. It is the revelation of God given to us to
understand."

Correct but there remains none-the-less things in the Bible that we do not understand fully.

"Sometimes study must proceed conclusions, but we can measure the
denominational theology in light of the truth found in the Bible. Paul used the phrase “I would not want you to be ignorant...” Several times. We can know, and in most cases it is obvious but we don’t want to come out from among them and be separate."

I guess I don't fully understand what your trying to get at here.

"Christ gave us the authority to preach the Gospel. I will preach the Gospel to all those who do not believe the right way of Salvation. Remember, Mormons will say they believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation through faith. What matters is what they believe. So I will question them further. To be honest, I usually always ask the question. “what church do you attend?” that will tell me right off the bat what I may be dealing with."

okay

"interpretation is another deceptive terminology. People always fall back on that by simply saying, “that’s your interpretation”. The Bible is not written in some mystical form for us to interpret."

Maybe not, yet you have been interperting it this whole thread through

"There is only one right interpretation - therefore only one interpretation. The rest is just all misunderstandings"

And you hold all the correct interpertations?

Yes I am a pain in the rear

Until Next Post, Adam

PS- I should also say Chet that I'm still learning- and this is how I learn best- by putting everything to the test that someone tells me is true whether I agree or not, k? It drove the Lutherans up the wall

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: flyfree432 ]

 

Flyfree- friend- I was seriously giving you a good hello. Nothing bad, I like you. I was just enjoying the conversation and was saying hi to you. I am sorry if you think it was bad. Go down to the “Best Threads” and read the post by Lorelei on “ The problem with message boards.” (one of the best post I have ever read.)

You don’t have to go to seminary to explain a passage. Something I was trying to get you to see is that the passage in 2 Cor 6 doesn’t have a context that supports
marriage. Perhaps you could apply it to marriage, but that is not what the context
is reading.

Flyfree, Salvation is spiritual. But it is also intellectual. A person mustunderstand their spiritual condition. And they must understand they can’t save themselves. They must also understand that the Biblical Jesus, who is God paid the price. They must also understand that Jesus rose from the dead to give them life. Once dead, now alive. The neat thing is, God gives us the understanding also. He gave us the Word. He gave us the brains, heart, hearing ability to read, comprehend and He is the one who drew us. In your scenario, I would have to say that he is probably lost. Eph 2:8-9 teaches we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves. If you think your actions of baptism is going to merit your faith then you are trusting yourself not in God. But I think that this discussion is more directed toward the generalizations. If someone asked me if all Catholics or ... are going to hell, I would say no. But I would say most of them are. How can you be a Christian - have the illumination of the Spirit - and associate yourself with such a group?

In my point about Paul saying “I don’t want you to be ignorant” was to show that we are not be left ignorant. We don’t have wait until we get to heaven, we are to know right now by studding the Bible.

Flyfree, I admire anyone who can say that they are still learning. I am also a major student of the Word, and life. I know people who think they know it all, and they get on my nerves . That is one thing that makes “Baptist” unique. We believe that we can study the Bible on our own as much as we want and that it is the final authority. We also believe that we can study together to determine if what someone say’s is so. (Acts 17:11) Only a fool would think in his mind that they had it all figured out. And you can ask some of my past teachers, they will tell you I am TOOOOO full of questions.

Lorelei Can I say...You are the woman! Excellent post. I appreciate your kind words, I don’t feel at all deserving, but it made me feel honored especially coming from someone I respect. Sometimes it is hard to put to words what you want to say. Thanks for your testimony, it is encouraging.

With love,

Chet

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

Originally posted by Chet:
"Flyfree- friend- I was seriously giving you a good hello. Nothing bad, I like you. I was just enjoying the conversation and was saying hi to you. I am sorry if you think it was bad. Go down to the “Best Threads” and read the post by Lorelei on “ The problem with message boards.” (one of the best post I have ever read.)"

Thank you for clearing that up. I have read her post, and I agree 100%, that is why I wanted to clear that up instead of assuming you used it in a bad context.

"You don’t have to go to seminary to explain a passage. Something I was trying to get you to see is that the passage in 2 Cor 6 doesn’t have a context that supports
marriage. Perhaps you could apply it to marriage, but that is not what the context
is reading."

I see that now. Actually people who go to seminary and turn into a encyclopedia on the Bible annoy me at best. There is no point in having the knowledge if you don't know how to use it and many do not know how to use it besides arguing.

"Flyfree, Salvation is spiritual. But it is also intellectual."

I respecfully disagree with this statement more than any other statement on religion I have ever heard. I devoted three essays to it and topics branching off of it:
www.geocities.com/flyfree432/personalacceptance.html

and
www.geocities.com/flyfree432/meansofgrace.html

I also have a essay called "The road to salvation" which talks much more on the subject but isn't on the internet yet.

Salvation is NOT intellectual. Salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ. This is not an intellectual faith. It is a spiritual faith. God does not save us because we can understand salvation, but because he loves us and gave us faith to believe in him. If salvation is intellectual than JW's and Mormons are saved because intellectually they believe that they have faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Spiritually they do not.

Your brother in Christ, Adam