Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Would all see this as living proof that God is, of a truth, the creator of all men? Did God create you, or are you simply the creation of your earthly parents, Satan, or something or someone else?
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Who is the Creator of All Men?
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In the beginning God created all life on earth as He says in Gen 1-2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11 --
God also SUSTAINS that living system as He says in Col 1:12-16.
Parents did not "have children" in order to get "Adam and Eve" rather God directly created them.
But now - God SUSTAINS that system so that parents DO have children to get "Anna and Steve".
In Christ,
Bob
God also SUSTAINS that living system as He says in Col 1:12-16.
Parents did not "have children" in order to get "Adam and Eve" rather God directly created them.
But now - God SUSTAINS that system so that parents DO have children to get "Anna and Steve".
In Christ,
Bob
Tom Butler
New Member
A couple of scripture passages will help:
Psalm 139:13 (David writes): For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb."
Jeremiah 1:5 (The Lord speaks to Jeremiah) "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you....."
Psalm 139:13 (David writes): For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb."
Jeremiah 1:5 (The Lord speaks to Jeremiah) "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you....."
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Would it be safe to assume that your rendering of this verse might be, ‘All things were originally created by Him, but now, subsequent to creation, God only sustains the system which in turn creates the actual product of the system that God put in order?’
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Interesting verses indeed. Can we assume, as BR seems to suggest, that it was the system that actually did the knitting, with God only providing support to it? If so, I wonder what that support might be? What I am wondering, is where lies the cause of our existence? Is it God or the system by which He created?
From the last verse should we assume that God was just referring to the system which He created that actually is now ‘the creator’ that knows us?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
God knows all - past present and future.
But as we are told in Col 1 we SUSTAINS all life -- without Him life itself would cease to exist.
In the question "WHO sinned that this man was born blind, the man or his parents" Christ states that was not a direct result of the sin EITHER of the parents OR the child that the man was born blind.
Is God "deliberately creating defects in the human genome" or is this decay and death process the natural result of a world at war with it's Creator.. sin.. rebellion... separation from the tree of life -- etc.
FOR NOW we see in a glass darkly -but then face to face.
In Christ,
Bob
But as we are told in Col 1 we SUSTAINS all life -- without Him life itself would cease to exist.
In the question "WHO sinned that this man was born blind, the man or his parents" Christ states that was not a direct result of the sin EITHER of the parents OR the child that the man was born blind.
Is God "deliberately creating defects in the human genome" or is this decay and death process the natural result of a world at war with it's Creator.. sin.. rebellion... separation from the tree of life -- etc.
FOR NOW we see in a glass darkly -but then face to face.
In Christ,
Bob
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
If one aborts a baby, is one simply aborting the product of the natural system that birthed us, or are we aborting a living soul?
That gives birth to the question, can ‘the system’ God created give birth to a living soul? Is the soul of man the mere product of the natural system God created, with that system evidently to be viewed as the 'creator of all the now living?'
That gives birth to the question, can ‘the system’ God created give birth to a living soul? Is the soul of man the mere product of the natural system God created, with that system evidently to be viewed as the 'creator of all the now living?'
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: The verses posted by Tom seem to be illuminated clearly to me. What seems to be difficulty in understanding them? What you term as 'the system,' I see as code words for 'Christ.'
Toads might be the mere product of a system created by God, but all living souls are the direct product and handiwork of our Creator God.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
The "system" that God sustains - determines the genetics of the child.
But God KNOWS the PERSON that is being given "such a body" - he can override or allow the choices to play out - either way it is his choice.
The question of WHEN the physical being of the child instantiates a soul is a metaphysical issue that God alone knows. I for one would hope that infants aborted would be present at the resurrection of the righteous in 1Thess 4 and Rev 20:1-5.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: So I wonder if God ever wonders if the person He calls a she will end up a he?
HP: Just not the genetics, right? :laugh:
HP: He sure seems to know a lot about this system He created.
Who creates the soul BR? Is there any way you can reduce the metaphysical issues to either just answering ‘God’ or is it the system He created that creates the soul? Can the physical create the spiritual? Do 'genetics' create and determine the nature of the soul?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The fact that God allows a seed to fall in the ground and grow - does not mean He does not know what the plant will look like until it appears. You keep focussing on "What God might not know" if he lets the systems He created continue to function. I am not aware of any reason that says He can not both know the result AND allow the system to function as designed and as "decayed and falling apart".
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Is God Himself the Creator of the soul, or are we the mere product of the system?
HP: BR, is it possinle that the 'system’ you speak of is what is commonly denoted as Mother nature? Was the psalmist addressing ‘the system’ or Mother nature in Ps. 139:13? Was it Mother nature or the system speaking to Jeremiah in Jer. 1:5?
tragic_pizza
New Member
Jeremiah 5:26
"Among my people are wicked men who lie in wait like men who snare birds and like those who set traps to catch men.
"Among my people are wicked men who lie in wait like men who snare birds and like those who set traps to catch men.
WaltRiceJr
New Member
I think there is a duality here that often goes without saying, but might need some saying now...
God ordains all things, for instance, my birth and existence. So much so that he can claim to have knit me together in my mother's womb. That being said, God often accomplishes his will by the means of the laws (the system) he has set in place. So I can say BOTH that God created me, and that I was born of my parents by natural means.
Different topic, but consider... God ordained that Christ would die one the cross for our sins, yet the catalyst for that path was indeed the free (in whatever sense you take this term) actions of those who desired to put him to death. There's mystery here!
God ordains all things, for instance, my birth and existence. So much so that he can claim to have knit me together in my mother's womb. That being said, God often accomplishes his will by the means of the laws (the system) he has set in place. So I can say BOTH that God created me, and that I was born of my parents by natural means.
Different topic, but consider... God ordained that Christ would die one the cross for our sins, yet the catalyst for that path was indeed the free (in whatever sense you take this term) actions of those who desired to put him to death. There's mystery here!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: This is a debate thread. Anytime you see a clear difference of opinion on an issue, there is room for debate, and debate often starts with a question. What would your answer to the question be?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Very well. Could not a toad say that concerning himself as well? Man has been created as a living soul, created to have fellowship with God and to exist in the here after for eternity. Whatever in man you call that eternal entity, be it the spirit or soul and or both of man, can it be created by mere biological means, or is God the sole author and creator of the soul of man? Another way to ask it would be, can the physical create or have the power to create or procreate the soul of man?
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God is the creator of all life. I don't have to obsess over the details. I give Him the glory and praise.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: This is a debate thread. Anytime you see a clear difference of opinion on an issue, there is room for debate, and debate often starts with a question. What would your answer to the question be?
Carry on with your debate.