Who will be in the millennial kingdom?

[Marcia]

The amillennial view of a general resurrection and judgment is Biblical and the historic Baptist view, that is, unless you want to cut John 5:28, 29 out of the Bible.:laugh:

How about what Jerome posted?

And there you go again with that John 5. 28, 29 thing. That does not prove your point. There will be a time when the dead resurrect, some to eternal life and some to eternal destruction. Yes, I agree. It does not mean it happens at the same time just because "hour" is singular. Would Jesus say "The hours are coming when...."

 

[OldRegular]

How about what Jerome posted?

And there you go again with that John 5. 28, 29 thing. That does not prove your point. There will be a time when the dead resurrect, some to eternal life and some to eternal destruction. Yes, I agree. It does not mean it happens at the same time just because "hour" is singular. Would Jesus say "The hours are coming when...."

You are incorrect! Words have meaning! Hour means hour! Jesus Christ said hour and He meant that the resurrection of both the just and the unjust would occur during the same time period, not separated by 1007 years. You cannot show a single verse of Scripture that teaches multiple resurrections as clearly as John 5:28, 29 teaches a general resurrection.:laugh:

 

[Ed Edwards]

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precursor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just precede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

 

[OldRegular]

How about what Jerome posted?

And there you go again with that John 5. 28, 29 thing. That does not prove your point. There will be a time when the dead resurrect, some to eternal life and some to eternal destruction. Yes, I agree. It does not mean it happens at the same time just because "hour" is singular. Would Jesus say "The hours are coming when...."

As for what Jerome said the following was posted earlier on the Amillennialism thread:

The dispensational error was introduced about 1830 by John Darby of the Plymouth [England] Brethern. Unfortunately this gross error was promulgated in America by the Scofield Reference Bible.

Historically the Baptists have been amillennial as shown in the following Confessions from the book Baptist Confessions of Faith by William Lumpkin.

The following are from Baptists bodies in England. The earliest and most significant confession of the Baptists in England, the London Confession of 1644 does not mention the resurrection and judgment but does affirm the return and triumph of Jesus Christ.

"1. The Midland Association Confession [1655]

Article 16 [page 200].

“That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of all men, just and unjust shall rise out of their graves, that all may receive according to what they have done in their bodies, be it good or evil.”

2. The Somerset Confession [1656]

Article XL [page 214].

“That there is a day appointed, when the Lord shall raise the unjust as well as the righteous, and judge them all in righteousness, but every man in his own order, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose punishment will be everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.”

3. The Standard Confession [1660]

Article XX [page 231].

“That there shall be [through Christ who was dead but is alive again from the dead] a Resurrection of all men from the graves of the earth, both the just and the unjust, that is, the fleshly bodies of men, sown into the graves of the earth, corruptible, dishonourable, weak, natural, [which so considered cannot inherit the Kingdom of God] shall be raised again, incorruptible, in glory, in power, spiritual, and so considered, the bodies of the Saints [united again to their spirits] which here suffer for Christ, shall inherit the Kingdom, reigning together with Christ.”

Article XXI [page 231].

“That there shall be after the Resurrection from the graves of the earth, An eternal Judgment, at the appearing of Christ and His Kingdom, at which time of judgment which is unalterable, and irrevocable, every man shall receive according to the things done in his body.”

4. The Second London Confession [1677]

Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293]

“1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.

3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”

Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]

“1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.

2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”

5. The Orthodox Creed [1679]

Article XLIX. Of the State of man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 333]

“The bodies of men after death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls, or spirits, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. And besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the holy scripture mentions none. At the last day such of the saints as are found alive shall not sleep but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their souls forever and forever, but the bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ, as a severe and just judge, be raised to dishonour; and the bodies of the just and righteous by His Spirit, as He is the head of the catholic Church, unto honour, and be made conformable with His glorious body, and shall enjoy everlasting life; in singing perpetual praises and hallelujahs to God for ever and ever. Amen.”

Article L. Of the last Judgment [page 334]

“And lastly, we believe God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ, to Whom all power, and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and shall receive a just sentence, according to what they have done in their bodies, whether good or evil, when God according to His purpose, will manifest the glory of His mercy, in the salvation of His elect, and of His justice in the eternal damnation of the wicked and disobedient; for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of joy and glory, but the wicked who know not God, nor obey the gospel offered them in Christ, shall be cast into everlasting torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power. Amen.”


Confessions of Baptists in America

The following Confessions [12-17] are by American Baptists.

1. The Philadelphia Confession of Faith [1742]

The Philadelphia Confession of Faith was not printed in the referenced book but is apparently the same as the Second London Confession with the addition of two articles addressing singing in the church and the laying on of hands.

2. The Kehukee [North Carolina] Association [1777]

Article 14 [page 356].

“We believe in the resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust, and a general judgment.”

3. The Sandy Creek Association [1777]

Article V [page 358].

“We believe that there will be a resurrection from the dead and a general or universal judgment, and that the happiness of the righteous and punishment of the wicked will be eternal.”

4. The New Hampshire Confession [1833]

Article XVIII. Of the World to Come [page 367]

“We believe that the end of this world is approaching: that at the last day, Christ will descend from heaven, and raise the dead from the grave to final retribution; that a solemn separation will then take place; that the wicked will be adjudged to endless punishment and the righteous to endless joy; and that this judgment will fix forever the final state of men in heaven or hell, on principles of righteousness.”

 

[Marcia]

OldRegular, you have not convinced me. John 5.28, 29 can be and should be read in light of other passages that expand on this topic. I think most of those have been posted and discussed by others more learned than myself.

So, good night, sleep tight!

:sleeping_2: :sleeping_2:

 

[OldRegular]

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precursor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just precede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

And all this time I thought dispensationalists believed in literal interpretation.:laugh::laugh: :laugh: :sleeping_2:

 

[OldRegular]

OldRegular, you have not convinced me. John 5.28, 29 can be and should be read in light of other passages that expand on this topic. I think most of those have been posted and discussed by others more learned than myself.

So, good night, sleep tight!

:sleeping_2: :sleeping_2:

Acts 28:25-31

25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.:wavey:

 

[Jerome]

Historically the Baptists have been amillennial as shown in the following Confessions...

3. The Standard Confession [1660]

Article XX [page 231].

“That there shall be [through Christ who was dead but is alive again from the dead] a Resurrection of all men from the graves of the earth, both the just and the unjust, that is, the fleshly bodies of men, sown into the graves of the earth, corruptible, dishonourable, weak, natural, [which so considered cannot inherit the Kingdom of God] shall be raised again, incorruptible, in glory, in power, spiritual, and so considered, the bodies of the Saints [united again to their spirits] which here suffer for Christ, shall inherit the Kingdom, reigning together with Christ.”

Article XXI [page 231].

“That there shall be after the Resurrection from the graves of the earth, An eternal Judgment, at the appearing of Christ and His Kingdom, at which time of judgment which is unalterable, and irrevocable, every man shall receive according to the things done in his body.”

Oops...you stopped quoting too soon.
keep reading (from Article XXII of the Standard Confession):

...we shall raign (with him) on the Earth, Rev. 5. 10. the Kingdomes of this World, (which men so mightily strive after here to enjoy) shall become the Kingdomes of our Lord, and his Christ, Rev. 11. 15. for all is yours, ( 0 ye that overcome this world) for ye are Christ's, and Christ is Gods, 1 Cor. 3. 22, 23. For unto the Saints shall be given the Kingdome, and the greatness of the Kingdome, under (mark that) the whole Heaven, Dan. 7. 27. Though (alas) now many men be scarce content that the Saints should have so much as being among them; but when Christ shall appear, then shall be their day, then shall be given unto them power over the Nations, to rule them with a Rod of Iron, Rev. 2. 26, 27.



...So what did early Baptists believe about the Millennial kingdom?

 

[skypair]

The amillennial view of a general resurrection and judgment is Biblical and the historic Baptist view, that is, unless you want to cut John 5:28, 29 out of the Bible.:laugh:

Yes, there is one general resurrection to the earth (also see Dan 12:2, Job 19:25-28, Psa 50:3-5, Ezek 37:12-14, John 5:28-28, John 11:23-24). It is into the MK of Messiah. And it is NOT for the church.

skypair

 

[Ed Edwards]

And all this time I thought dispensationalists believed in literal interpretation.:laugh::laugh: :laugh: :sleeping_2:

Finally you noticed - i'm not your average dispyED!

 

[OldRegular]

Yes, there is one general resurrection to the earth (also see Dan 12:2, Job 19:25-28, Psa 50:3-5, Ezek 37:12-14, John 5:28-28, John 11:23-24). It is into the MK of Messiah. And it is NOT for the church.

skypair

:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :tear:

 

[OldRegular]

Oops...you stopped quoting too soon.
keep reading (from Article XXII of the Standard Confession):

...we shall raign (with him) on the Earth, Rev. 5. 10. the Kingdomes of this World, (which men so mightily strive after here to enjoy) shall become the Kingdomes of our Lord, and his Christ, Rev. 11. 15. for all is yours, ( 0 ye that overcome this world) for ye are Christ's, and Christ is Gods, 1 Cor. 3. 22, 23. For unto the Saints shall be given the Kingdome, and the greatness of the Kingdome, under (mark that) the whole Heaven, Dan. 7. 27. Though (alas) now many men be scarce content that the Saints should have so much as being among them; but when Christ shall appear, then shall be their day, then shall be given unto them power over the Nations, to rule them with a Rod of Iron, Rev. 2. 26, 27.



...So what did early Baptists believe about the Millennial kingdom?

Early Baptists, and the Biblically literate Baptists today, believed in a general resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20-22 teaches that the Church Triumphant shall dwell in the new Heaven and Earth with God.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Marcia]

Acts 28:25-31

25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.:wavey:

What's your point?

 

[Ed Edwards]

:smilewinkgrin: The early church fathers (ECF) beleived just like I do. The early baptists believed just like the ECF and like me. If, by some remote chance the ECF or early baptists don't believe like me, I'm still right :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Don't you think that God can take care of these problems? After all, He did create the world out of nothing.

On another point - you are making fun of a view that many people do have scriptural support for, even if you disagree. If I wrote something like that re Calvinism, people here would tear my head off and be nasty.

Would it be ok if I made fun of all the other views as well. I mean I could make fun of Calvinism and Armenianism. I could make fun of Pre mid and post trib. I could make fun of the rapture. I could make fun of Amillienialist. That way I'm equal opportunity.

God could take care of these problems but more likely he will do something totaly unexpected just like the incarnation. People had all sorts of thought about the Messiah as well and when he came it sure turned a few heads.

 

[Marcia]

Would it be ok if I made fun of all the other views as well. I mean I could make fun of Calvinism and Armenianism. I could make fun of Pre mid and post trib. I could make fun of the rapture. I could make fun of Amillienialist. That way I'm equal opportunity.

No, I don't think that would make it okay. However, if you can't help yourself and find that you simply must make fun of at least one of these views, then it would be best to make fun of all them.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, I don't think that would make it okay. However, if you can't help yourself and find that you simply must make fun of at least one of these views, then it would be best to make fun of all them.

Thats actually a challenge. They are so differing there is nothing I can do to be inclusive of all of them! Ok.

Well, we all agree on this though: Christ will return. He will call us to himself and the dead will rise. We will be judge and we will have our reward or our punishment.

The rest is speculative.