Why are christians judged according to their works?

[Doubting Thomas]

[surfacing]
Well, I said yesterday in another thread that I'd refrain from further posting until after Lent, but the importance of this issue compelled me to write this one response...

Here is one I haven't seen. As usual, I thought it was what most everyone believed...

We are judged according to our works, all sinners and to be condemned on that basis. Then those of us who are in Christ have His righteousness imputed to us and are saved.

Indeed we are all judged according to our works:

"[God] who 'will render to each one according their deeds': eternal life to those who by patient continuence in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 2:6-10)

So Paul affirms that God will render to "everyone" according to their deeds and that "eternal life" is for those who "patiently continue" to "do good". Those who don't get "anguish, wrath," etc.

This, of course, is agreement with the Lord Jesus Himself:

"Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29)
Notice that this judgement occurs during the same "hour" and is not separated by some thousand year period. Those who have "done good" and those who have "done evil" are both present; the former receive the "resurrection of life", the latter receive the "resurrection of condemnation".

Also, you will be hard pressed to find any mention of a one thousand year period in Matthew 24 or 25 (or anywhere else in Matthew's Gospel for that matter). This whole idea that the "Sheep and Goat" Judgement is limited only to those poor souls "left behind" when the Church is raptured 7 years prior (and that it is to be based on how these "left behind" folks treat ethnic Jews) arises from an erroneous dispensational scheme which was invented in the 19th century. (As far as we can tell, based on documents of believers through the ages, no one believed in this wacky stuff in the history of the Church before then.) You'd be wise to be wary of such schemes as they in many places and in many ways wrongly divide the word of truth.

Taking these Scriptures at face value, therefore, debunks the notion that we're somehow exempt from the Great Judgement just because we've made a one time decision to "accept Christ". Salvation is not some irrevocable fire insurance policy (or a "Get-Out-Of-Judgement-FREE" card) based on a one time decision, but is rather life in CHRIST in WHOM we must continue to abide (John 15:1-10). As the Lord said, when we abide in Him we'll bear much fruit and that apart from Him we can do NOTHING (John 15:5). However, if we don't bear fruit (John 15:2), if we don't abide in Him, we will be cast out as branches (John 15:6)
(See also what Paul says in Romans 11:18-23 about how we must "continue" in God's goodness and keep standing by faith, or else we too will be "cut off".)

God Bless you in your search for the Truth.

DT
[/submerging]

 

[DHK]

But the TEXT does not say it is only the "spiritually dead". You added that part. You also added that it is for the devil and his angels using a text out of context.

A text out of context is a pretext. You KNOW this DHK.

Jesus distinctly says that everlasting punishment (which would include both Hell and the Lake of Fire) was created particularly for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now, how is there anything taken out of context, pray tell me?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Not out of context at all, DHK.

As I said, in order for their doctrine that the Child of God will be cast out into outer darkness\hell, the believer must stand before the GWT.

It is them who take the Scripture concerning the GWT out of context.

 

[DQuixote]

Keep on keeping on, DHK. Some of the responses to you and to the OP are an abomination. Utter distortion of scripture, scripture against scripture, words and phrases totally misunderstood, falsely interpreted and applied.

J. Jump wrote:

Why you think something is true just because you type it I don't know, but one would hope that people are smart enough not to fall for that. Unfortunately far too many times we still see people falling for this.

Then I suggest, J. Jump, that you cease forever from typing. Folks might fall for your nonsense and be led away from the Truth. God forbid.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

 

[Tazman]

[surfacing]
Well, I said yesterday in another thread that I'd refrain from further posting until after Lent, but the importance of this issue compelled me to write this one response...


Indeed we are all judged according to our works:

"[God] who 'will render to each one according their deeds': eternal life to those who by patient continuence in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 2:6-10)

So Paul affirms that God will render to "everyone" according to their deeds and that "eternal life" is for those who "patiently continue" to "do good". Those who don't get "anguish, wrath," etc.

This, of course, is agreement with the Lord Jesus Himself:

"Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29)
Notice that this judgement occurs during the same "hour" and is not separated by some thousand year period. Those who have "done good" and those who have "done evil" are both present; the former receive the "resurrection of life", the latter receive the "resurrection of condemnation".

Also, you will be hard pressed to find any mention of a one thousand year period in Matthew 24 or 25 (or anywhere else in Matthew's Gospel for that matter). This whole idea that the "Sheep and Goat" Judgement is limited only to those poor souls "left behind" when the Church is raptured 7 years prior (and that it is to be based on how these "left behind" folks treat ethnic Jews) arises from an erroneous dispensational scheme which was invented in the 19th century. (As far as we can tell, based on documents of believers through the ages, no one believed in this wacky stuff in the history of the Church before then.) You'd be wise to be wary of such schemes as they in many places and in many ways wrongly divide the word of truth.

Taking these Scriptures at face value, therefore, debunks the notion that we're somehow exempt from the Great Judgement just because we've made a one time decision to "accept Christ". Salvation is not some irrevocable fire insurance policy (or a "Get-Out-Of-Judgement-FREE" card) based on a one time decision, but is rather life in CHRIST in WHOM we must continue to abide (John 15:1-10). As the Lord said, when we abide in Him we'll bear much fruit and that apart from Him we can do NOTHING (John 15:5). However, if we don't bear fruit (John 15:2), if we don't abide in Him, we will be cast out as branches (John 15:6)
(See also what Paul says in Romans 11:18-23 about how we must "continue" in God's goodness and keep standing by faith, or else we too will be "cut off".)

God Bless you in your search for the Truth.

DT
[/submerging]

:thumbs: good post

 

[BobRyan]

[surfacing]
Well, I said yesterday in another thread that I'd refrain from further posting until after Lent, but the importance of this issue compelled me to write this one response...


Taking these Scriptures at face value, therefore, debunks the notion that we're somehow exempt from the Great Judgement just because we've made a one time decision to "accept Christ". Salvation is not some irrevocable fire insurance policy (or a "Get-Out-Of-Judgement-FREE" card) based on a one time decision, but is rather life in CHRIST in WHOM we must continue to abide (John 15:1-10). As the Lord said, when we abide in Him we'll bear much fruit and that apart from Him we can do NOTHING (John 15:5). However, if we don't bear fruit (John 15:2), if we don't abide in Him, we will be cast out as branches (John 15:6)
(See also what Paul says in Romans 11:18-23 about how we must "continue" in God's goodness and keep standing by faith, or else we too will be "cut off".)

God Bless you in your search for the Truth.

DT
[/submerging]

That much is true sir.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

[surfacing]
Indeed we are all judged according to our works:

"[God] who 'will render to each one according their deeds': eternal life to those who by patient continuence in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 2:6-10)

So Paul affirms that God will render to "everyone" according to their deeds and that "eternal life" is for those who "patiently continue" to "do good". Those who don't get "anguish, wrath," etc.

This, of course, is agreement with the Lord Jesus Himself:

"Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29)
Notice that this judgement occurs during the same "hour" and is not separated by some thousand year period. Those who have "done good" and those who have "done evil" are both present; the former receive the "resurrection of life", the latter receive the "resurrection of condemnation".

Also, you will be hard pressed to find any mention of a one thousand year period in Matthew 24 or 25 (or anywhere else in Matthew's Gospel for that matter). This whole idea that the "Sheep and Goat" Judgement is limited only to those poor souls "left behind" when the Church is raptured 7 years prior (and that it is to be based on how these "left behind" folks treat ethnic Jews) arises from an erroneous dispensational scheme which was invented in the 19th century. (As far as we can tell, based on documents of believers through the ages, no one believed in this wacky stuff in the history of the Church before then.) You'd be wise to be wary of such schemes as they in many places and in many ways wrongly divide the word of truth.

WHile I agree with you about Christians being judged and I agree with you that the pre-trib rapture idea is "recent" as is the "mid-trib".

I do not agree that the 1000 years of Rev 20 is a whacky idea that is not in the Bible.

I do not agree with you that the 1000 years is even a problem at all for the judgment that Paul speaks of in 2Cor 5 and that we see in Dan 7 where "WE MUST ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ"... and in the end "Judgment is passed in FAVOR of the saints" Dan 7:22.

None of that is threatened by accepting a REAL 1000 year span of time between the Rev 19 2nd coming and the Rev 20-21 Lake of Fire event.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

Then I suggest, J. Jump, that you cease forever from typing. Folks might fall for your nonsense and be led away from the Truth. God forbid.

Well you are just one of many folks that like to tell us how wrong we are, but I notice you are just like the rest of them in that you can't prove that we are wrong with Scripture, so you just make statements and hope people believe you.

So if you think I and others are SO wrong then please by all means prove me wrong. As I have said to a number of others, I'm not interested in winning a debate or argument. I am only interested in the Truth. So if you have the Truth then by all means feel free to PM me or email me and "prove" that I am wrong. But I'm not going to stop believing what I believe just because someone says I should. And that's what eventually everyone that I have talked to have said. They get tired of not being able to deal with what the texts actually say so they just simply end up saying "well you're wrong because I say so and you should stop believing that." Sorry, but I don't operate that way. Unfortunately too many in Christendom do.

And I tell people all the time that they should test what I say with Scripture. No one is to believe me just because I say something. Test everything I say with Scriptures and then they should test everything you people say with Scriptures as well! Then and only then should they make up their minds.

 

[J. Jump]

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now, how is there anything taken out of context, pray tell me?

Well with all due respect the biggest mistake that you have made is changing the context from the original context to a context of eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is not the context or if it is then you will have to admit that you believe in a works based salvation.

Scripture tells us that eternal salvation is by grace through faith apart from works. But if you will notice what sent these folks into "everlasting" fire was their works or better yet their lack of works. We have nothing here suggesting a lack of faith in the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

And I'll say this again as I have said many times before when you mix contexts trouble is inevitable.

We are told that this context is in regard to the kingdom of the heavens. The kingdom of the heavens is not eternity.

Hope that helps.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Well you are just one of many folks that like to tell us how wrong we are, but I notice you are just like the rest of them in that you can't prove that we are wrong with Scripture, so you just make statements and hope people believe you.

So if you think I and others are SO wrong then please by all means prove me wrong. As I have said to a number of others, I'm not interested in winning a debate or argument. I am only interested in the Truth. So if you have the Truth then by all means feel free to PM me or email me and "prove" that I am wrong. But I'm not going to stop believing what I believe just because someone says I should. And that's what eventually everyone that I have talked to have said. They get tired of not being able to deal with what the texts actually say so they just simply end up saying "well you're wrong because I say so and you should stop believing that." Sorry, but I don't operate that way. Unfortunately too many in Christendom do.

And I tell people all the time that they should test what I say with Scripture. No one is to believe me just because I say something. Test everything I say with Scriptures and then they should test everything you people say with Scriptures as well! Then and only then should they make up their minds.

I have tested everything you say with Scripture. Nowhere in Scripture can one find that a Child of God spends a thousand years in hell.

 

[J. Jump]

I have tested everything you say with Scripture. Nowhere in Scripture can one find that a Child of God spends a thousand years in hell.

Funny you have tested it with Scripture, yet you can't prove that its wrong using Scripture . . . so something there doesn't jive Hmmmmm.

And if you think you can then you are more than welcome to PM me and share the Truth with me!

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Just the fact that there is no record of a Child of God spending a thousand years in hell proves it wrong. The doctrine that a Child of God will spend a thousand years in hell in not found in the Bible and is thus a false teaching.

 

[DHK]

Well with all due respect the biggest mistake that you have made is changing the context from the original context to a context of eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is not the context or if it is then you will have to admit that you believe in a works based salvation..

Your objection is unwarranted.
There are many types of judgements mentioned in the Bible. The above is called the judgement of the nations. There is also the Judgement Seat of Christ, The Great White Throne Judgement, A Judgement for Angels, and still others mentioned in the Bible. If I take anyone of these judgements, even one that does not apply to me (like the GWT judgement), and glean doctrinal truth from it, because the judgement doesn't apply to me, will it make the doctrine false? Of course not? Because the judgement of the nations does not apply to me does not make the doctrine taught in the judgement false. Jesus clearly taught that everlasting punishment was originally created for the devil and his angels. That is the doctrine that he taught. Was he lying?

 

[DHK]

Funny you have tested it with Scripture, yet you can't prove that its wrong using Scripture . . . so something there doesn't jive Hmmmmm.

And if you think you can then you are more than welcome to PM me and share the Truth with me!

I can't prove that indulgences are wrong with Scripture.
I can't prove that the assumption of Mary is wrong with Scripture.
I can't prove that limbo is wrong with Scripture.

There are many extra Biblical and heretical doctrines that I can't prove using Scripture becasue they aren't in Scripture. Don't read into Scripture things that are not there. That is what the Catholics do.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I would say that the burden of proof lies on you, J.Jump. You attest that the Child of God who somehow is found to be imperfecft when he or she stands before the JSOC will spend a thousand years in hell.

Of the 6 times that the term 'a thousand years is mentioned,in Scripture, two are in the Old Testament and say nothing of hell. One in Peter's writings speaks of time with the Lord. And the three in Revelation speak of saints reigning with the Lord.


So, it is you who has to prove your unbiblical doctrine. We are going by God's Word... not some fairy tale.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Let me post all the verses that have to do with 'a thousand years' from the Word of God.

Psalms 90:4 (KJV) For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night. {when...: or, when he hath passed them}

Ecclesiastes 6:6 (KJV) Yea, though he live a thousand years twice [told], yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:2 (KJV) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Of all the verses, not one says anything to suggest the Child of God will spend a thousand years in hell.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

There are three more verses that speak of 'the thousand years. These say nothing of the Child of God being in hell either.

Revelation 20:3 (KJV) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:7 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

So, since the Word of God does not say the Child of God will spend a thousand years in hell, which fairy tale book does the false doctrine come from?

I'll give you a hint... check out the Catholic libraries.

 

[J. Jump]

Just the fact that there is no record of a Child of God spending a thousand years in hell proves it wrong. The doctrine that a Child of God will spend a thousand years in hell in not found in the Bible and is thus a false teaching.

That's just your words that's not proof. Try again . . . this time with Scripture.

 

[J. Jump]

Your objection is unwarranted.

Really . . . that's interesting.

There are many types of judgements mentioned in the Bible. The above is called the judgement of the nations. There is also the Judgement Seat of Christ, The Great White Throne Judgement, A Judgement for Angels, and still others mentioned in the Bible. If I take anyone of these judgements, even one that does not apply to me (like the GWT judgement), and glean doctrinal truth from it, because the judgement doesn't apply to me, will it make the doctrine false? Of course not? Because the judgement of the nations does not apply to me does not make the doctrine taught in the judgement false. Jesus clearly taught that everlasting punishment was originally created for the devil and his angels. That is the doctrine that he taught. Was he lying?

Okay you say my objection is unwarranted and then the best you can do to explain it away is this?

You take a passage of Scripture that is clearly not speaking about eternal salvation and you try to make it about eternal salvation or in your point eternal damnation.

So again if eternity is the context and where one spends it then the judgment can only be on the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ. Yet there is not a single mention of His death and shed blood in this passage.

Again it just amazes me how you folks will just totally ingore context and just make up your own stuff as you go along that suits you.

Now I don't disagree that the fire was originally for the devil and his angels, however that doesn't mean that the fire is ONLY for the devil and his angels.

Bottom line is this is contextually not speaking about eternity. This is a judgment and judgment is based on works. Therefore eternal salvation is not the context. Works is the context.

 

[J. Jump]

I can't prove that indulgences are wrong with Scripture.
I can't prove that the assumption of Mary is wrong with Scripture.
I can't prove that limbo is wrong with Scripture.

There are many extra Biblical and heretical doctrines that I can't prove using Scripture becasue they aren't in Scripture.

Boy you guys will just try everything to get out of dealing with Scripture huh That just cracks me up. If what I believe is so wrong, it doesn't matter whether it's in the Bible (which it IS) or not, you should be able to prove what you believe with Scripture which would prove me wrong.

And no one has been able to step to the plate and make their case. So DHK I will offer the same offer to you . . . if I am so wrong you are more than welcome to show me where every "saved" individual will rule and reigh with Christ. By all means please show me where Scripture says the soul is already saved. Please show me where Scripture says that one gains entrance into the kingdom by grace through faith apart from works.

Just PM me and we'll get started. No one else has taken up the offer yet. Where are you Quote and HBSMN?