Why are christians judged according to their works?

[DQuixote]

So if you have the Truth then by all means feel free to PM me or email me and "prove" that I am wrong.

I don't need to prove anything. The Bible is sufficient. It disproves your argument. You simply don't know how to read it.

I'm amazed that your church hasn't called you out.

 

[J. Jump]

I would say that the burden of proof lies on you, J.Jump.

Well here's another strawman argument you folks make when you can't deal with Scripture. The burden of proof does not lie with me. It is not my job to "prove" to anyone anything. I am merely supposed to repeat Truth.

You are the one that has charged me with being wrong, so why is it my job to prove I'm right when you are the one that has laid the accusation? I've never understood that. Why is it so difficult for you all to "prove" your beliefs with Scripture if in fact you are SO right? Why are you always throwing the ball into someone's court. If you make the accusation take the ball and put it through the hoop. Again if you are SO right it shouldn't be that difficult. So I'll await your PM so we can start our discussion.

 

[J. Jump]

I don't need to prove anything.

Really so your only responsibility is to tell people they are wrong. You don't have any responsibility to show them or tell them the Truth . . . wow . . . you all get more amazing as the days go buy.

The Bible is sufficient.

Well we can actually agree on that statement.

It disproves your argument.

So again I'm just supposed to stop believing what I believe and believe like you because you say so. Give me a break.

You simply don't know how to read it.

By all means please enlighten me then master reader of the Bible. Oh wait you don't have the responsibility to the Truth other than to believe it right. You don't have to share it with others. I remember. :laugh:

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

1 John 3:2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Since the Word of God says we will be like Him when we see Him, He cannot send the Child of God to Hell. We will be like Him when we see Him. If we are like Him and must go to hell to be purged, then He would need purging as well.

No, we will be pure when we see Him, we will be spotless and without blame.

The above verse is enough to prove that a Child of God will not go to hell.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Well here's another strawman argument you folks make when you can't deal with Scripture..

What Scripture? You haven't produced any Scripture. Only incessant ramblings.

 

[J. Jump]

What Scripture?

That's my point! I see that you have put one forth, so let's see if it proves your point.

 

[bmerr]

At the Judgment Seat of Christ described in 1Cor.3:11-15, (for believers only) it describes how we will be judged each one according to our works. But the idea there is one of reward, not punishment. We will be rewarded according to our works. There is no punishment meted out, only a loss of reward.

DHK,

bmerr here. Actually, 1 Cor 3:13-15 needs to be kept in it's context, which begins in verse 4. The Corinthians were dividing (denominating) over different ministers, which Paul sternly condemns in his letter.

3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Paul brings the work of the minister into perspective in the following verses:

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we [Paul and Apollos] are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

So far, we have Paul and Apollos as labourers, and the Corinthians identified as the labour, or the work.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation [planted], and another [Apollos] buildeth thereupon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built therupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself [the labourer] shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Now how can I say such things? There are several verses in which Paul refers to his readers, his converts, as his work, his labour, their being built on the foundation of Christ, or their faithfulness affecting his rejoicing at the Judgement. Here are a few. Look them up and see for yourself.

1 Cor 9:1; Eph 2:19-22; Phil 2:15-16; 1 Thes 3:5; 1 Pet 2:5

Additionally, in this same letter to the Corinthians, Paul speaks of his own self discipline and self control, and the reason for it, namely, "...lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Cor 9:27). Paul was not speaking of rewards here, but of his own eternal soul.

I know this goes against the popular OSAS doctrine, and I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but I think you have a misunderstanding of the passage.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[J. Jump]

The above verse is enough to prove that a Child of God will not go to hell.

Well let's just see if that holds up to be true or not.

Here is the verse that you have put for as your "proof":

1 John 3:2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Now here is "your" commentary on the verse:

Since the Word of God says we will be like Him when we see Him, He cannot send the Child of God to Hell. We will be like Him when we see Him. If we are like Him and must go to hell to be purged, then He would need purging as well.

Here is the problem with "your" commentary. You say that the "Word of God says we," and you assume the "we" means all Christians. But there is nothing in that Scripture that says all Christians. It doesn't every imply all Christians.

Once again you have read something into the text that is not there to "prove" "your" point.

The verse says the "we" are the sons of God. So now you are going to have to produce a passage of Scripture that says all children become sons.

 

[BobRyan]

Problem.

There is no "go to hell - get purged - go to heaven - be a saint, be happy" in all of scripture.

There is no "soul goes to hell - spirit goes to heaven" in all of scripture.

When you get to the point of having to rely on teachings that can not be found in all of scripture - it is time to choose another horse.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Your objection is unwarranted.
There are many types of judgements mentioned in the Bible. The above is called the judgement of the nations. There is also the Judgement Seat of Christ, The Great White Throne Judgement, A Judgement for Angels, and still others mentioned in the Bible. If I take anyone of these judgements, even one that does not apply to me (like the GWT judgement), and glean doctrinal truth from it, because the judgement doesn't apply to me, will it make the doctrine false? Of course not?

hmm - I agree with DHK there on just that part.

 

[BobRyan]

Nowhere in Scripture can one find that a Child of God spends a thousand years in hell

That is true. but more pointedly NOTHING says "the wicked spend x-years in hell then go to heaven, then are happy, then are saints, then are pretty much ok"

 

[BobRyan]

Believers are judged 1000 years prior at the JSOC and found to be righteous because they are clothed in His Righteousness

The rest of the dead lived not again until after the 1000 years. Then, they are raised, and judged.

No need for another judgment of Believers.

(I can't believe I am agreeing with HBSMN again)

 

[BobRyan]

Just the fact that there is no record of a Child of God spending a thousand years in hell proves it wrong. The doctrine that a Child of God will spend a thousand years in hell in not found in the Bible and is thus a false teaching.

Certainly no "Gospel promise" of "spending 1000 years in hell then going to heaven"

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

If it isn't in the Word of God, there is no sense in trying to add it. There are severe consequences for doing such.

Revelation 21:27 (KJV) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[BobRyan]

At the Judgment Seat of Christ described in 1Cor.3:11-15, (for believers only) it describes how we will be judged each one according to our works. But the idea there is one of reward, not punishment. We will be rewarded according to our works. There is no punishment meted out, only a loss of reward.

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

2Cor 5 and Romans 2 speak to the Judgment seat of Christ as does James 2.

But 1Cor 3 does not. 1Cor 3 does not involve anyone dying or a future judgment scene. It speaks of Evangelists PREACHING (Apollos and Paul in this case) and states that the substance of their teaching must be built upon the foundation of Christ. IF their teaching is found to be some thing inferior it (the TEACHING) will be purged away from the body of Christ.

The CONTEXT is a discussion about SAINTS who are in this case evangelists - whose teaching may not always be absolutely perfect in all areas.

Hopefully some of you can identify with that.

But the point in 1Cor 3 is not that "God will deal with them at the JSOC" it is that "God will purge away the TEACHING from the true church of God" rather than let the degrees of error fester.

Of course the true church of God is spiritual and so even when the formally organized church goes astray - as did the Jews at the time of Christ and the RCC in the dark ages - the true church continues on - without WAITING for the JSOC due to the principle of 1cor 3 that has nothing to do with the JSOC!

Ahhh - I am back to differing with DHK - ok all is well again.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

@ DHK

But what about this verse here?

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

If it was only about rewards for good things then why does it say "good or bad"?
What is a reward for a bad deed? A punishment?

Bingo!!

You are right - and as it turns out 2Cor 5:10 IS About the Judgment seat of Christ whereas 1Cor 3 is not!! So you get A+

Now and then Xd surprises me!

As Romans 2 and Romans 6 state clearly the "wages of sin is DEATH" the reward for those bad deeds - is hell, torment in the lake of fire - the 2nd death. Bad stuff.

And what I also ask myself is wether all good deeds count or wether a good deed only counts if God made you do it. For example if I think that it's a good idea to send somebody a gospel tract then how do I know if it was only my idea or if God made me do it?

The bible does not say "by your good deeds you will know you".

Ever wonder why that is?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is one I haven't seen. As usual, I thought it was what most everyone believed...

We are judged according to our works, all sinners and to be condemned on that basis. Then those of us who are in Christ have His righteousness imputed to us and are saved.

It is true according to Romans 3 that ALL are still today fully condemned as sinners and guilty of hell according to the Moral Law of God that STILL exists and still shows humanity to be "sinners".

It is also true that through the Gospel we are "born again" and the blood of Christ covers our sins.

But at the JSOC - the Romans 2 rule is used.

At the JSOC the James 2 rule is used.

At the JSOC the Dan 7 result of "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" is according to the Rule of Christ in Matt 7.

And that brings up the problem that this thread is trying to resolve.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

If it isn't in the Word of God, there is no sense in trying to add it. There are severe consequences for doing such.

So the logical question is why do you do it so much? :laugh: Because I'm not the only one that has pointed out your ability to do just that.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Not only do the majority agree with my stand on this topic, but also the Word of God agrees with my stand.

The Child of God will not be put in hell for a thousand years. Christ's righteousness has been imputed to the Child of God and Christ is the advocate or lawyer for that Child.

I have never seen a defense attorney argue for a stiff punishment for his client. Nor will Christ impose such a sentence on the Child of God.

 

[J. Jump]

Not only do the majority agree with my stand on this topic,

Oh here we go with the illogical "majority" argument. By the same argument had you been living in the times of the NT you probably would have sided with the Pharisees and Saduccees huh, they were in the majority too.

Just becuase the "majority" agrees with some doesn't make it right. And actually the "majority" is not really where one wants to find himself in the lukewarm church that we have today according to Scripture.

That argument holds no water whatsoever.

but also the Word of God agrees with my stand.

Well you keep saying that, but you haven't put your money where your mouth is yet, so I'm still waiting.

The Child of God will not be put in hell for a thousand years. Christ's righteousness has been imputed to the Child of God and Christ is the advocate or lawyer for that Child.

Christ's righteousness being imputed to us for eternal purposes. We are talking about the 1000-year reign of Christ. Those are different subjects.

And Christ is our Advocate before the Father IF we will allow Him to be. That is not an automatic.

We are to prove ourselves worthy for the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

I have never seen a defense attorney argue for a stiff punishment for his client. Nor will Christ impose such a sentence on the Child of God.

Well sorry, but personal experience does not make Truth.