Why Cals Arms disagree #2

[Winman]

The first thread was closed due to being 30 pages, I only started a new thread to answer Old Regular in this post.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1910827&postcount=302

I wanted to specifically answer this statement;

You have no basis to make such a statement. The message of Scripture is that he was saved. There is nothing in the account to indicate otherwise. It is true that he did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit but this is typical of the believers under the dispensation of the Old Testament. There is no indication in the discussion that Cornelius was not saved. The primary purpose of recording this event is to show that the Gospel was for Gentiles as well as Jews.

You are mistaken, the scriptures clearly tell us Cornelius was NOT SAVED.

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

In Acts 11, Peter has returned to Jerusalem and is recounting his experience with Cornelius. In verses 13-14 Peter tells us what the angel had said to Cornelius. The angel had told Cornelius to send for Peter "who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house SHALL BE SAVED."

So we know for an absolute fact that Cornelius was NOT saved when the angel appeared to him.

We also know from verse 15-17 that Cornelius did not receive the Holy Spirit until after Peter began to preach to him and he believed. So we know for a fact that Cornelius was not regenerated when the angel appeared to him in chapter 10.

We know from chapter 10 that Cornelius was very devout and feared God, that he prayed always, and gave much alms to the people. Peter declared that Cornelius worked "righteousness" in Acts 10:35.

Acts 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The story of Cornelius refutes Total Inability in several ways. Cornelius was not saved, and Cornelius did not have the Holy Spirit, yet Cornelius truly and sincerely believed in God. In fact, the scripture implies he had believed for many years as he had a good report of all the Jews, who were normally very bigoted against any Gentile.

Cornelius's faith was real because God sent an angel to speak to him. God also recognized his good works and alms, as Peter confirmed in verse 35. This shows unregenerate men can do good works that God recognizes.

So here you have an unregenerate man without the Holy Spirit who was devout and feared God, prayed always, and did good works that God recognized.

The story of Cornelius utterly refutes Total Inability as understood by Calvinism.

 

[12strings]

Perhaps a Moderator could change the title of this thread to: "Was Cornelius Saved Before meeting Peter?"

 

[Bronconagurski]

The first thread was closed due to being 30 pages, I only started a new thread to answer Old Regular in this post.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1910827&postcount=302

I wanted to specifically answer this statement;



You are mistaken, the scriptures clearly tell us Cornelius was NOT SAVED.

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

In Acts 11, Peter has returned to Jerusalem and is recounting his experience with Cornelius. In verses 13-14 Peter tells us what the angel had said to Cornelius. The angel had told Cornelius to send for Peter "who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house SHALL BE SAVED."

So we know for an absolute fact that Cornelius was NOT saved when the angel appeared to him.

We also know from verse 15-17 that Cornelius did not receive the Holy Spirit until after Peter began to preach to him and he believed. So we know for a fact that Cornelius was not regenerated when the angel appeared to him in chapter 10.

We know from chapter 10 that Cornelius was very devout and feared God, that he prayed always, and gave much alms to the people. Peter declared that Cornelius worked "righteousness" in Acts 10:35.

Acts 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The story of Cornelius refutes Total Inability in several ways. Cornelius was not saved, and Cornelius did not have the Holy Spirit, yet Cornelius truly and sincerely believed in God. In fact, the scripture implies he had believed for many years as he had a good report of all the Jews, who were normally very bigoted against any Gentile.

Cornelius's faith was real because God sent an angel to speak to him. God also recognized his good works and alms, as Peter confirmed in verse 35. This shows unregenerate men can do good works that God recognizes.

So here you have an unregenerate man without the Holy Spirit who was devout and feared God, prayed always, and did good works that God recognized.

The story of Cornelius utterly refutes Total Inability as understood by Calvinism.

You can not prove or disprove some doctrines from the book of Acts. It is a transitional book that has things happen that don't happen again. What about the 12 believers that were saved, but had not even heard of the Holy Spirit? Act 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
Act 19:2 And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
Act 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism."
Act 19:4 And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus."
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
Act 19:7 There were about twelve men in all.

Some denominations falsely teach that this proves the giving of the Holy Spirit is a second working of grace and that simply is not true. Some say that Paul asked them about baptism because it is necessary for salvation. That is not true either. We have to be real careful in the book of Acts as some things are never repeated.

 

[Winman]

You can not prove or disprove some doctrines from the book of Acts. It is a transitional book that has things happen that don't happen again. What about the 12 believers that were saved, but had not even heard of the Holy Spirit? Act 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
Act 19:2 And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
Act 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism."
Act 19:4 And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus."
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
Act 19:7 There were about twelve men in all.

Some denominations falsely teach that this proves the giving of the Holy Spirit is a second working of grace and that simply is not true. Some say that Paul asked them about baptism because it is necessary for salvation. That is not true either. We have to be real careful in the book of Acts as some things are never repeated.

You are not paying attention, these persons were not saved. Paul preached Jesus Christ to them, they were baptized, and then they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying

 

[percho]

Perhaps a Moderator could change the title of this thread to: "Was Cornelius Saved Before meeting Peter?"

I can't answer that but I will with confidence say he was of the sheep of the Shepherd.

 

[Bronconagurski]

You are not paying attention, these persons were not saved. Paul preached Jesus Christ to them, they were baptized, and then they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying

Luke, the historian, called them disciples and believers. I beg to differ that Paul preached the gospel, he merely reiterated what John preached. So, yes, I am paying attention. There are many great men on both sides of this. I am not one of them, but I agree with the ones who say these people were saved. Let me ask you, was Peter saved before the day of Pentecost?

 

[Winman]

Luke, the historian, called them disciples and believers. I beg to differ that Paul preached the gospel, he merely reiterated what John preached. So, yes, I am paying attention. There are many great men on both sides of this. I am not one of them, but I agree with the ones who say these people were saved. Let me ask you, was Peter saved before the day of Pentecost?

They were disciples and believers. They believed the teaching of John the Baptist. But they were not saved until they believed on Jesus, otherwise there would be no need to preach Christ to them.

This is not the point I am trying to make. We know these disciples had true faith, they believed John. They believed Paul when he preached Christ. But they did not have the Holy Spirit, so how could they be born of the Spirit?

I showed you the disciples believed on Jesus in John chapter 2. But they did not receive the Holy Spirit until John chapter 20.

If a man can only believe if he has been supernaturally born again of the Spirit (as Calvinism teaches), how did the disciples believe on Jesus for over 3 years without the Spirit?

This is the point I am making, the scriptures clearly show a man has the ability to believe without the Spirit. In fact, the scriptures teach a man must believe to receive the Spirit.

But to answer your question, when was Peter saved? I believe Peter was saved when he believed Jesus was the Christ. That is, his sins were forgiven and he was now spiritually alive. But he was not baptized into the body of Christ until he received the Spirit in John 20.

 

[psalms109:31]

"According to which decree He graciously softens the hearts of the elect, however obstinate, and inclines them to believe; while He leaves the non-elect in His just judgment to their own wickedness and obduracy."

Canon of Dort

Is that really Scriptural? I see a crossroad both ways are placed before us by His word, both ways pulling on us. We must say not my will but your will be done at the crossroad.

Matthew 23:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]”

Jeremiah 6:16
This is what the LORD says: “Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, ‘We will not walk in it.’

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Deuteronomy 30 :
The Offer of Life or Death

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Mark 16:16

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

No matter how great my love for a doctrine is I will not let it quench the Spirit and change any scripture reaching to all men to come.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Back to the OP. I know for me, a liberating element in TULIP was Limited Atonement. Initially I could not see its relevance & so never could accept Doctrines of Grace as valid. But once I understood it, that it was in fact a Definite Atonement, that Christs death on the cross did in fact save me....then things started to snap & pop. We also believe in OSAS. So Gods selecting me as elect & saving me once & for all ....then finally perfecting me is & was critical criterion.

As I become more familiar with my Lutheran friends down the road (& see there theology--Which I see as "Almost Catholic"), I thank God that he has had the mercy to enlighten me to the value of my own Faith.

 

[convicted1]

then things started to snap & pop.

I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but that was your arthritis at work.....I'm just sayin'..... :wavey: :love2: :flower:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but that was your arthritis at work.....I'm just sayin'..... :wavey: :love2:

Obviously you never served as a Marine.....there is a whole other connotation to that expression! :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just got off the phone with the Lutheran Pastor who informed me that infant baptism is their idea of being reborn.

 

[psalms109:31]

If I was told all my life I was chosen before the foundation of the world and chosen in my mothers womb all my life I would maybe come to Jesus because that is what I am suppose to do and stick it out like the son who stayed or i might be like the prodigal son and test the waters and find out i been lied to all my life and never return or come home to the truth.

I wasn't, the church i started out with when i was real young until 15 taught to only trust in Jesus for my salvation and not to add anything else. I wanted to be baptized after i trusted in Jesus and they said Jesus did to fulfill a prophesy and i needed to do nothing but trust in Jesus for my salvation. I ask them what my religion was and they said faith. They believed God loved the world and taught it, they should it was the Salvation Army, yes the Salvation Army is a Church. I wanted to do things for my salvation i didn't want to stand around and do nothing. I tried to live a righteous life failed but kept trying. I thought baptism is what i was missing.

I moved away from California to Texas at 15 and went to many different churches under the sun and couldn't find one even when i joined the military like the one in California. It was like being separated from my family.

When i got out of the Army i went to the Baptist church my mom attended and brought my girlfriend at the time to go to. We got baptized together and married in that church. When i got water baptized i still felt no changes. I read the Holy Bible and commentaries and couldn't understand i word i was reading. I person that was at the state i was came to preach a sermon i felt was for me. He said a little book named "All of grace" by Charles Spurgeon helped him. It helped me to realize i was looking at me and what i can do not in Him. At that time i hated Calvinism. Reading books from Charles Spurgeon and listening to Dr. J Vernon Mcgree realizing their background is Calvinism made me realize not all Calvinist are heartless. I am so glad God got rid of that hate that was a foothold for the devil. So many children having the seed of the devil needing to be given the best seed, to be born again by the living enduring word of God and to be a new creation in Christ.

Christ is the wheat and everything outside of Him is the chaff to be burned up with unquenchable fire

 

[Yeshua1]

The first thread was closed due to being 30 pages, I only started a new thread to answer Old Regular in this post.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1910827&postcount=302

I wanted to specifically answer this statement;



You are mistaken, the scriptures clearly tell us Cornelius was NOT SAVED.

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

In Acts 11, Peter has returned to Jerusalem and is recounting his experience with Cornelius. In verses 13-14 Peter tells us what the angel had said to Cornelius. The angel had told Cornelius to send for Peter "who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house SHALL BE SAVED."

So we know for an absolute fact that Cornelius was NOT saved when the angel appeared to him.

We also know from verse 15-17 that Cornelius did not receive the Holy Spirit until after Peter began to preach to him and he believed. So we know for a fact that Cornelius was not regenerated when the angel appeared to him in chapter 10.

We know from chapter 10 that Cornelius was very devout and feared God, that he prayed always, and gave much alms to the people. Peter declared that Cornelius worked "righteousness" in Acts 10:35.

Acts 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The story of Cornelius refutes Total Inability in several ways. Cornelius was not saved, and Cornelius did not have the Holy Spirit, yet Cornelius truly and sincerely believed in God. In fact, the scripture implies he had believed for many years as he had a good report of all the Jews, who were normally very bigoted against any Gentile.

Cornelius's faith was real because God sent an angel to speak to him. God also recognized his good works and alms, as Peter confirmed in verse 35. This shows unregenerate men can do good works that God recognizes.

So here you have an unregenerate man without the Holy Spirit who was devout and feared God, prayed always, and did good works that God recognized.

The story of Cornelius utterly refutes Total Inability as understood by Calvinism.

Being Spiritually dead does NOT mean men cannot do good works, nor even pray to a God, or have a religion, its just that they CANNOT come to know jesus unless/until the father draws thems, and opens their eyes/herat by the Holy spirit in order to receive the good news!

And Cornilius is an example of those gentiles that the Lord had appointed beforehand to receive jesus, and had prepared him to hera and respond to good news of Gospel!

His good works were NOT the cause of thast, it was due to the Will of God!

 

[MB]

Being Spiritually dead does NOT mean men cannot do good works, nor even pray to a God, or have a religion, its just that they CANNOT come to know jesus unless/until the father draws thems, and opens their eyes/herat by the Holy spirit in order to receive the good news!

And Cornilius is an example of those gentiles that the Lord had appointed beforehand to receive jesus, and had prepared him to hera and respond to good news of Gospel!

His good works were NOT the cause of thast, it was due to the Will of God!

It never ceases to amaze me the miriad of ways there are to avoid the truth of scripture. Making such a broad statemewnt as your's certainly deserves scripture to refute what Winnman has shown here don't you think. Bet you have no scriptures that can refute what Winnman has stated here. You refuse it as false with out proof even to your self.
MB

 

[HeirofSalvation]

It never ceases to amaze me the miriad of ways there are to avoid the truth of scripture. Making such a broad statemewnt as your's certainly deserves scripture to refute what Winnman has shown here don't you think. Bet you have no scriptures that can refute what Winnman has stated here. You refuse it as false with out proof even to your self.
MB

Welcome to the world of responding to Yeshua...My advice....don't even bother. He/She merely asserts some propositions as fundamentally true, even the one being debated, and then concludes that the debate is over, since he/she has already assumed the conclusion. I do not know whether he/she does this on purpose or not. He/She will NOT respond to either you, nor Winman in the sense that he/she will actually debate the premise that he/she assumes, but merely re-assert it in order to find a basic flaw in the argument presented. It is and will remain an utter waste of your time. Just ignore it, as a waste of your computer's processing power to populate all responses to a thread.