Why did Jesus die?

[Van]

In a recently closed thread, the issue was suggested that if God can forgive sins, why would Jesus need to die?

Can God forgive sins, and why did Jesus die?

Yes, God can forgive sins as He can have mercy on whom He pleases.​

Jesus died as God's act of mercy to provide the means of reconciliation for fallen humanity.​

The OT saints were taken to Abraham's bosom, a place of comfort, rather than the place of torment. Thus they had received mercy, but had not been allowed to enter heaven because they had not been "made perfect." To be made perfect is to be made holy and blameless by the blood of the Lamb.​

Without the shedding of blood they can be no forgiveness of sin.​

One way to put these two seemingly at odds pronouncements is to say a "temporary" forgiveness can be granted, but for an eternal forgiveness, the blood of the Lamb is required. ​

Certainly all the OT saints taken to Abraham's bosom were temporarily forgiven of their sins because they were not taken to the place of torment in Hades. But they had to wait there, to be made perfect so they had not yet been made holy and blameless.

Another indicator is that God's chosen spokespersons were influenced by the Holy Spirit such that their words were inspired, but they were not "indwelt." That promise's fulfillment had to wait until sinners underwent the washing of regeneration.

Thus the "means of reconciliation," the means of uniting of the lost sinner separated from God due to unholiness, with God required the shedding of Christ's blood, the sacrifice of His life.

 

[37818]

Certainly all the OT saints taken to Abraham's bosom . . .

Abraham's side is not the whole of Sheol's upper place aka being Paradise.

Luke 16:23, . . . in his [Abraham's] bosom.

Luke 23:43, . . . Paradise . . . .

 

[Charlie24]

In a recently closed thread, the issue was suggested that if God can forgive sins, why would Jesus need to die?

Can God forgive sins, and why did Jesus die?

Yes, God can forgive sins as He can have mercy on whom He pleases.​

Jesus died as God's act of mercy to provide the means of reconciliation for fallen humanity.​

The OT saints were taken to Abraham's bosom, a place of comfort, rather than the place of torment. Thus they had received mercy, but had not been allowed to enter heaven because they had not been "made perfect." To be made perfect is to be made holy and blameless by the blood of the Lamb.​

Without the shedding of blood they can be no forgiveness of sin.​

One way to put these two seemingly at odds pronouncements is to say a "temporary" forgiveness can be granted, but for an eternal forgiveness, the blood of the Lamb is required. ​

Certainly all the OT saints taken to Abraham's bosom were temporarily forgiven of their sins because they were not taken to the place of torment in Hades. But they had to wait there, to be made perfect so they had not yet been made holy and blameless.

Another indicator is that God's chosen spokespersons were influenced by the Holy Spirit such that their words were inspired, but they were not "indwelt." That promise's fulfillment had to wait until sinners underwent the washing of regeneration.

Thus the "means of reconciliation," the means of uniting of the lost sinner separated from God due to unholiness, with God required the shedding of Christ's blood, the sacrifice of His life.

Interesting thread! You may find this somewhat off topic, and if you do just disregard this post. For the moment, I will assume I have your permission to go forward with this.

I would like to take a look at a particular statement, "Yes, God can forgive sins as He can have mercy on whom He pleases" with an emphasis on the bold "He can have mercy on whom He pleases."

This is very much misunderstood by the good folks in the Sovereign Grace family. Let's take a look at what it really means!

Paul said this in Romans 9:15

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Paul quoted Moses on this from Exodus 33:19,

"And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

Moses is having a conversation with God, and Moses will not move forward with what God told him to do until God proves His presence with him.

So God said to Moses, vs 17,

"And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name."

Now, God is allowing for Moses to actually see Him, but only His hind parts (from behind), for God told Him, you cannot see my face, you will surly die. The glory in God's face is unbearable for human flesh, the flesh would just be consumed and vanish.

Notice in this same vs.17 that God is granting Moses this request based on "for thou hast found Grace in my sight, and I know thee by name."

Moses was a believer in the shed Blood of Christ, and only by his faith is God granting him this request.

Then in vs. 19 God says to Moses, "and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

It is only by faith in The Blood of Christ that God will be "gracious and have mercy" on man.

God is not picking at random, or by a predestination on whom he will have mercy and grace, He has mercy and grace on those who choose to believe, as Moses did.

 

[Paleouss]

Yes, God can forgive sins as He can have mercy on whom He pleases.

Greetings Van, Thank you for your post.

Besides the obvious answer to your question, "can God forgive sins". The answer being, yes. A more pointed question, I think, would be...how did God decide to forgive sins? This way of asking the question avoids the answer of "He has mercy on whom He pleases". I am not saying that God cannot have mercy on whom he pleases. I am suggesting that God decreed "how" He would forgive and He did this to express and convey just who God is.

God decreed to show mankind, through history, that He was not only the “justifier” (Rom 3:26) but also “just” (Rom 3:26). So it was first “for judgement [Christ] came into this world” (John 9:39) to fulfill the Moral Law (Matt 5:17). For if he had not come “they would not have been guilty of sin” (John 15:22). But now that Christ has fulfilled the Law and is the completion of the Law, “now they have no excuse for their sin” (John 15:22).

So yes, God can just say "forgiven", however, He didn't choose to do it that way. At least according to the Bible. He chose, in His divine wisdom, to show forgiveness AND justice (Rom 3:26). Or more accurately, forgiveness through justice All this to show the full presence of God in His creation.

Jesus died as God's act of mercy to provide the means of reconciliation for fallen humanity.

Amen

Peace to you brother.

 

[Van]

Greetings Van, Thank you for your post.

Besides the obvious answer to your question, "can God forgive sins". The answer being, yes. A more pointed question, I think, would be...how did God decide to forgive sins? This way of asking the question avoids the answer of "He has mercy on whom He pleases". I am not saying that God cannot have mercy on whom he pleases. I am suggesting that God decreed "how" He would forgive and He did this to express and convey just who God is.

God decreed to show mankind, through history, that He was not only the “justifier” (Rom 3:26) but also “just” (Rom 3:26). So it was first “for judgement [Christ] came into this world” (John 9:39) to fulfill the Moral Law (Matt 5:17). For if he had not come “they would not have been guilty of sin” (John 15:22). But now that Christ has fulfilled the Law and is the completion of the Law, “now they have no excuse for their sin” (John 15:22).

So yes, God can just say "forgiven", however, He didn't choose to do it that way. At least according to the Bible. He chose, in His divine wisdom, to show forgiveness AND justice (Rom 3:26). Or more accurately, forgiveness through justice All this to show the full presence of God in His creation.


Amen

Peace to you brother.

And thank you for your thoughtful post!

I agree with your excellent post, God cannot violate one of His attributes (being just) when He carries out another of His attributes, (being merciful).
Yes, I know justice is perfected through mercy.

Your next point, God chose to carry out forgiveness through justice, is indeed spot one. You flipped the paradigm, He justly punishes the lost because He received the just payment for the sins of those saved. And yes, this concurs with your third point, this is the way God chose to carry out His redemption plan.