Why do you all think what we think

[billwald]

is more important than what we do? God is a grammarian?

 

[Yeshua1]

is more important than what we do? God is a grammarian?

what one thinks/believes determines if ones works are any good in the etrnal sense!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

what one thinks/believes determines if ones works are any good in the etrnal sense!

I thought all works weren't any good in the eternal sense according to your belief.

 

[Yeshua1]

I thought all works weren't any good in the eternal sense according to your belief.

After being saved by Grace of God, the good works done while here that were of proper motives/desires will be used to 'reward" the ones doing them, in order to gain those "crowns"....

So one can be save dand heaven without eternal rewards, another can be in heavewn with many of them...

 

[billwald]

So we who have the fewest brownie points will have to clean the bathrooms?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

After being saved by Grace of God, the good works done while here that were of proper motives/desires will be used to 'reward" the ones doing them, in order to gain those "crowns"....

or make us closer to the image of Christ? Ah... So you do believe that good works "after being saved by the Grace of God" is meritorious? So according to you sanctification is important? Now this being the case let me explain the catholic perspective a little. Still keeping in mind what you believe about obtaining crowns "after being saved by Grace" through good works. What you call "being saved by Grace" Catholics actually define that consept at the entry point to the greater world of salvation. So yes we are saved by faith in Christ given to us By the Grace of God and not by any work of our own so that no one can boast. However we see several tenses of the word salvation in scripture. Its not all just past tense but also present tense we are being saved and it is also in the future tense we will be saved. What are we saved for (past tense). Well Paul says

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them

are we living out our salvation if we are walking into those works which God has prepared? No. Look then at 1 Peter 1

who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Salvation in the future tense also

obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls

So we see the scriptural use of the word salvation has more than just one tense for christian - or just the Past tense. It is thus Catholics believe we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.
Ask yourself this question in this passage in first Peter

since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,

why should one fear if heaven is an unevitable outcome? Because salvation includes what Peter says here

Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24 for

“All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.”

And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

It is clear that you have been born again so that you can perfect yourself by Meritorious actions after you initial point of salvation. Here it is clear the Good news is that you are saved to be obedient to God receiving in the end your fulness of salvation

who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Let me put it in another way. I don't know if you've read Pilgrims Progress. A christian classic by John Bunyan, but I will use it to make my point.

I looked then, and saw a man named Evangelist coming to him, and he asked, “Wherefore dost thou cry?”
He answered, “Sir, I perceive, by the book in my hand, that I am condemned to die, and after that to come to judgment, Heb. 9:27; and I find that I am not willing to do the first, Job 10: 21,22, nor able to do the second.” Ezek. 22:14. Then said Evangelist, “Why not willing to die, since this life is attended with so many evils?” The man answered, “Because, I fear that this burden that is upon my back will sink me lower than the grave, and I shall fall into Tophet. Isa. 30:33. And Sir, if I be not fit to go to prison, I am not fit to go to judgment, and from thence to execution; and the thoughts of these things make me cry.” Then said Evangelist, “If this be thy condition, why standest thou still?” He answered, “Because I know not whither to go.” Then he gave him a parchment roll, and there was written within, “Fly from the wrath to come.” Matt. 3:7. The man therefore read it, and looking upon Evangelist very carefully, said, “Whither must I fly?” Then said Evangelist, (pointing with his finger over a very wide field,) “Do you see yonder wicket-gate?” Matt. 7:13,14. The man said, “No.” Then said the other, “Do you see yonder shining light?” Psalm 119:105; 2 Pet. 1:19. He said, “I think I do.” Then said Evangelist, “Keep that light in your eye, and go up directly thereto, so shalt thou see the gate; at which, when thou knockest, it shall be told thee what thou shalt do.” ...So, in process of time, Christian got up to the gate. Now, over the gate there was written, “Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” Matt. 7:7...But O, what a favor is this to me, that yet I am admitted entrance here! ...And therefore good Christian, come a little way with me, and I will teach thee about the way thou must go. Look before thee; dost thou see this narrow way? That is the way thou must go. It was cast up by the patriarchs, prophets, Christ, and his apostles, and it is as strait as a rule can make it; this is the way thou must go...Now I saw in my dream, that the highway up which Christian was to go, was fenced on either side with a wall, and that wall was called Salvation. Isaiah 26:1...He ran thus till he came at a place somewhat ascending; and upon that place stood a cross, and a little below, in the bottom, a sepulchre. So I saw in my dream, that just as Christian came up with the cross, his burden loosed from off his shoulders, and fell from off his back, and began to tumble, and so continued to do till it came to the mouth of the sepulchre, where it fell in, and I saw it no more. Then was Christian glad and lightsome, and said with a merry heart, “He hath given me rest by his sorrow, and life by his death.” Then he stood still a while, to look and wonder; for it was very surprising to him that the sight of the cross should thus ease him of his burden. He looked, therefore, and looked again, even till the springs that were in his head sent the waters down his cheeks. Zech. 12:10. Now as he stood looking and weeping, behold, three Shining Ones came to him, and saluted him with, “Peace be to thee.” So the first said to him, “Thy sins be forgiven thee,” Mark 2:5; the second stripped him of his rags, and clothed him with change of raiment, Zech. 3:4; the third also set a mark on his forehead, Eph. 1:13, and gave him a roll with a seal upon it, which he bid him look on as he ran, and that he should give it in at the celestial gate: so they went their way. Then Christian gave three leaps for joy, and went on singing.

it is at this point which you say one is saved. I say this is true but also everything after is also salvation.
Therefore let us understand terms. When Catholics speak of Merit torwards salvation and participation of salvation we are not talking about any point before what you call "saved by the grace of God" what we think of as an entry point to salvation (initial Justification). If we were to die at that point we would go to heaven if we do not die at that point as long as we remian in him we will obtian heaven. When we speak of merit we mean it like you do when you speak of winning crowns of Glory only a "saved" christian (past tense) can merit salvation's rewards (present continuing sense) which we will experience fully when our salvation is fully revealed at the return of Christ (future tense). So often we speak over each other when you speak of salvation you are only speaking of the entry point as if its the whole thing. But that is just the begining. Not the end. In the Catholic mind. Therefore we do not believe works can save us (bring us to the place of justification) but only Jesus' completed work on the Cross can do that. After that point we can please God by the works that we do.

 

[saturneptune]

I thought all works weren't any good in the eternal sense according to your belief.

Your posts have ceased to carry any credibility. Your purpose in being here is to mock and demean the Baptist faith. Works ae a result of salvation and a sign with a real relationship with Jesus Christ. Works do not save. Personally, I think it is time for you to move on, which is exactly what you would have already done if I were moderator.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Your posts have ceased to carry any credibility. Your purpose in being here is to mock and demean the Baptist faith. Works ae a result of salvation and a sign with a real relationship with Jesus Christ. Works do not save. Personally, I think it is time for you to move on, which is exactly what you would have already done if I were moderator.

I have a simple question for you. Honestly now. How have I mocked the Baptist faith? I've disagreed with baptist and I make my points. Members who are Church of Christ also disagree and make their points contradicting baptist position. Isn't this a debate forum? I make my points others disagree. We both present our position we both support our views using scripture. I have never said baptist arent' christians. I have never said baptist wont be saved. In fact I assert the opposit and have consistantly done so. I believe baptist to be Christian. I believe there are saved baptist who will be in heaven. All I've done is put forward my position on specific matters (nuance) of our faith.

In all the Major aspects of faith I agree with baptist.
We believe in the Trinity
We believe in the Virgin Birth
We believe in Christ redemptive act at Calvary
We believe in Christ actual death on the Cross
We believe in Christs actual resurrection
We believe scriptures are the inspired word of God and Authoritative
We Believe that all those who believe on Jesus will be raised up on the last day
We believe in the return of Jesus Christ
We believe in a final Judgement
We believe in life everlasting for those who believe

Where we differ is on the details of many of these points. I personally didn't come to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ with out Baptist influence on my life. It was through baptist preaching that I asked Jesus to come into my heart. And the majority of my adult life I spent at baptist churches. I have the upmost respect for baptist and have made friends on this site. I disagree with Biblicist many times and at times been frustrated. But I listen to him and all others who put forward their ideas. I would freely eat with him if I met him as well as DHK. So again how have I mocked the baptist faith? Am I not allowed to disagree?

As far as credibility. I don't claim to have any more credibility than anyone else on this site. Certainly I wouldn't consider me a credible proponent of Baptist theological views. However, I hope that I'm considered credible proponent for Catholic views and of course my own.

 

[saturneptune]

If you are dense enough not to pinpoint to time when your statements lost credibility, I will remind you. It is when you said, all Baptists and evangelicals, stop believing false doctrine and return to the one holy catholic church. You are the same as Mormoons and Jehovah Witnesses.

 

[Gina B]

Was it actually spelled "Mormoons?" Cuz that's kinda hilarious no matter what. That in itself would have made it impossible for me to feel insulted by any words surrounding it.

 

[billwald]

Logically, Reformed believers don't know why people are saved

because election is not based on God's foreknowledge. If God doesn't know in advance whom the Holy Spirit will regenerate . . . .

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If you are dense enough not to pinpoint to time when your statements lost credibility, I will remind you. It is when you said, all Baptists and evangelicals, stop believing false doctrine and return to the one holy catholic church. You are the same as Mormoons and Jehovah Witnesses.

When did I ever say that? Ever? Show me that post! I would very much like to see it. I think you have the issue of either a mistaken identity or would have like me to have said that.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If you are dense enough not to pinpoint to time when your statements lost credibility, I will remind you. It is when you said, all Baptists and evangelicals, stop believing false doctrine and return to the one holy catholic church. You are the same as Mormoons and Jehovah Witnesses.

I think I know what happened here. It must be a case of mistaken identity. I know I didn't say that. So I looked at your arguments or post and this is what I found. You were arguing with Wittenburger on this post So, I think you got me confused with him because we have similar views on certain issues. I never said what you attributed to me.

 

[saturneptune]

I think I know what happened here. It must be a case of mistaken identity. I know I didn't say that. So I looked at your arguments or post and this is what I found. You were arguing with Wittenburger on this post So, I think you got me confused with him because we have similar views on certain issues. I never said what you attributed to me.

Yes, you are correct and my sincerest apology. The two names are not even similar so I have no excuse. I have no problem debating any issue, but that comment sent me through the wall, and I reacted too quickly. Again, my apologies.

 

[Walter]

Your posts have ceased to carry any credibility. Your purpose in being here is to mock and demean the Baptist faith. Works ae a result of salvation and a sign with a real relationship with Jesus Christ. Works do not save. Personally, I think it is time for you to move on, which is exactly what you would have already done if I were moderator.

Thankfully you are not a moderator. If everyone who disagrees with you is purged from the BB you will have nobody left to mock and demean. You won't have much fun anymore.

Seriously, you have asked why people are allowed to post on the BB who are not of 'like faith and order?' We all know who that eliminates. All Protestants who hold to the validity of sacraments are gone, all Catholics (only a couple allowed here anyway), all Orthodox, all Anglicans.

The reason you believe TS's posts 'have ceased to carry any credibility' is because he left the Baptist church for the Catholic faith which for you is inconceivable and a real burr in your bonnet. You are an anti-Catholic bigot of the highest magnitude and the amount of anti-Catholic lies you continue to post prove it.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Seriously, you have asked why people are allowed to post on the BB who are not of 'like faith and order?' We all know who that elimnates. All Protestants who hold to the validity of sacraments are gone, all Catholics (only a couple allowed here anyway), all Orthodox, all Anglicans.

..and Lutherans as well...and members of the CoC, at least in regards to baptism. (And unfortunately not all Anglicans 'hold to the validity of the sacraments'---there are some low-church Anglicans who, despite what the BCP and Articles teach, are basically Zwinglian in their view of baptism and communion.)

 

[Michael Wrenn]

..and Lutherans as well...and members of the CoC, at least in regards to baptism. (And unfortunately not all Anglicans 'hold to the validity of the sacraments'---there are some low-church Anglicans who, despite what the BCP and Articles teach, are basically Zwinglian in their view of baptism and communion.)

And I would change your word "unfortunately" to "fortunately". I am glad that there is at least one denomination that can contain a wide diversity of beliefs.

 

[Walter]

And I would change your word "unfortunately" to "fortunately". I am glad that there is at least one denomination that can contain a wide diversity of beliefs.

From what I understand, the Anglican Communion IS the only example of this.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

From what I understand, the Anglican Communion IS the only example of this.

It's the only one I know of. And there is the same wide diversity of belief on just about every doctrine. Some people see that as a bad thing, but I don't.

 

[saturneptune]

The reason you believe TS's posts 'have ceased to carry any credibility' is because he left the Baptist church for the Catholic faith which for you is inconceivable and a real burr in your bonnet. You are an anti-Catholic bigot of the highest magnitude and the amount of anti-Catholic lies you continue to post prove it.

It is a badge of honor. Think about it. You and TS are the one that signed up for a Baptist board, comparing us to JWs and Mormons (TS that is), telling us to return to the catholic church and stop believing false doctrine.

Like I said before, I will discuss any issue, but when statements like the above are made, it is time for you two to leave. Catholic doctrine gets the exact treatment it deserves.