Why Have Denominations?

What, specifically, do you think we need to do differently?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Anytime a group of people takes pride in their group they have lost the battle.

God blesses humility. We must realize that we are all sinners saved by grace. We are no better than anyone else just better off.

It is quite irritating for me to hear from Baptists how great they are. I would have to only take you to the central coast of California to show you that almost every SBC church is dying and are at about 30 percent of what they once were 30 years ago. Every Baptist church is dying except those who have taken a different route. Those who remove their pride and seek to reach people are reaching them. In that same area are churches that are virtually no different than a good Baptist church and they are springing up all over and doing very well.

I think a major problem with so many is they look to the headquarters to give them guidance. They forget about the role of the Holy Spirit and seek to get help through some program.

A walk with God and a church that grows must be dependent upon God not some program that comes out of Nashville or some other place. It is God who is at work not a program that can mock Him and attempt to be a substitute for Him. I am at a church now that is exploding with growth. The church has gone from 70 to 2000 in seven years. At its low point the people were fighting and doing it the Baptist way. The pastor leading point people to God and leads them to seek God not some program coming out of headquarters.

A friend of mine pastored a GARB church and the deacons asked him to leave. So he started a church on his own. Today the church is about 4.5 years old and they have planted nine new churches. The church that was started by him is 4.5 years old and it has about 800 in attendance each Sunday. When you walk in the building you know God is at work. People are changing and God is at work.

People really do not care what the name says. What they care is that people are real and Christ is worshiped.

George Barna writes about a church in one of his books that went to Willow Creek and came home to do everything Willow Creek did. The church in the first year grew in attendance to about 500 and then the next year went back down to the 50 it once was and stayed there. God will not be mocked by our programs but He will work when we humbly seek Him first. His ways are not our ways. So we must do things His way if we expect to get His blessing.

 

Amen bmerr.Smite the Shepard and the sheep will scatter.Arguements will cease(as I am guilty as any here)and the body will be one.I believe somewhere the real church will appear and all denominations will lose many many members(God will clean His house first).This will cause a great gnashing of teeth,when people have to realize they have believed in vain.Pride in denomination is the biggest enemy,they all say:"We can never be wrong in our belief!"

 

I too think that denominationialism is becoming a problem. Sometimes Christians are so frightened of Ecumenicism, that they withdraw from one another. It is my opinion that Ecumenicism between likeminded Christians should be encouraged. I also think that a number of denominations need to have a serious think about amalgamating with other likeminded groups.

To often it is about power and control, which is not what it was ever meant to be about.

 

Ben W I believe you may be right. A lot of people freak out over one religion because they are sure that it is satan's evil plan based on Revelations.

But it ought not be seen that way. Jesus is one shepherd and He has one sheepfold.

Ephesians 4
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

Because as Thomoas Bokenkotter reports - the RCC has elements "borrowed from Paganism" and at some point -- Catholics inside that institution had to see their error and start to come out. The Various efforts to leave ALL the error behind - resulted in the first generation Protestant denominations in addition to the Roman Catholic denomination, the Eastern Orthodox denomination, the Anglican denomination -- etc.

 

Anytime a group of people takes pride in their group they have lost the battle.

God blesses humility. We must realize that we are all sinners saved by grace. We are no better than anyone else just better off.

It is quite irritating for me to hear from Baptists how great they are. I would have to only take you to the central coast of California to show you that almost every SBC church is dying and are at about 30 percent of what they once were 30 years ago. Every Baptist church is dying except those who have taken a different route. Those who remove their pride and seek to reach people are reaching them. In that same area are churches that are virtually no different than a good Baptist church and they are springing up all over and doing very well.

I think a major problem with so many is they look to the headquarters to give them guidance. They forget about the role of the Holy Spirit and seek to get help through some program.

A walk with God and a church that grows must be dependent upon God not some program that comes out of Nashville or some other place. It is God who is at work not a program that can mock Him and attempt to be a substitute for Him. I am at a church now that is exploding with growth. The church has gone from 70 to 2000 in seven years. At its low point the people were fighting and doing it the Baptist way. The pastor leading point people to God and leads them to seek God not some program coming out of headquarters.

A friend of mine pastored a GARB church and the deacons asked him to leave. So he started a church on his own. Today the church is about 4.5 years old and they have planted nine new churches. The church that was started by him is 4.5 years old and it has about 800 in attendance each Sunday. When you walk in the building you know God is at work. People are changing and God is at work.

People really do not care what the name says. What they care is that people are real and Christ is worshiped.

George Barna writes about a church in one of his books that went to Willow Creek and came home to do everything Willow Creek did. The church in the first year grew in attendance to about 500 and then the next year went back down to the 50 it once was and stayed there. God will not be mocked by our programs but He will work when we humbly seek Him first. His ways are not our ways. So we must do things His way if we expect to get His blessing. </font>[/QUOTE]gb,

It seems to me that the original post dealt a lot more with confusion about doctrine than it did with the attitude of Baptists. What specifically should we do to change that confusion in doctrine.

BTW,

It does not surprise me one bit that California Baptist church attendance is waning. I agree that programs, etc... are simply a band-aid and not a good, permanent fix to the issue (even cookie cutter approaches that come out of California (not Tennessee). I am disturbed that you think a highly attended church = a Godly Church. I have always disagreed with the bean counter mentality. The reason I care about what the name says is because it tells you more about what kind of doctrine they might be teaching there and there is less confusion, which is the original problem stated in the original post. For example, if I walk into a Southern Baptist Church, at least out here, there is a good chance that I will not here messages about accepting homosexuality, and other sins. Such would not be true if I went to, say, an Alliance of Baptist Church. I do not hear messages about name it and claim it, and barking in the spirit. Such would not be true at a charasmatic church, or most non-denominational churches these days, ironically enough...

So, as much as you would like to lament the differences between denominations, or the fact that we even have them at all, to me, it is a good thing to have on the sign so that there is not confusion of doctrine.

Also, please don't assume that because church attendance numbers are not as high as yours that this means the church is dying. And don't assume that because you have a mega church that God is blessing what you do. Neither assumption is fair nor necessarily true.

Matthew 7:13-14

Joseph Botwinick

 

One thing that needs to happen is that pastors need to listen to the people.

Heres what I mean. Lets say brother Jones receives a revelation from God that such and such church down the street has it right on this certain thing.

Instead of just kicking the varment out, they need to check it out! He could be right!

But so many times,"Brother Jones" is just dismissed, and he leaves that church, takes some of the people with him and starts ANOTHER denomination!

There we go, instead of unity we have division, and on and on it goes.

We need to start consolidating instead of dividing.

Selah,

Tam

 

If Bro. Jones' "revelation" from God doesn't square with scripture, they should disregard it and if he persist, kick the varment out.

Perhaps you could give an example of the kind of revelation you are talking about. For the record, I don't believe that unity is always a good thing. Unity at the cost of sound doctrine is a bad thing.

Joseph Botwinick

 

No, don't compromise sound doctrine, but sometimes churches split over dumb things, like for instance:

One group says,"we need to dress up in our best clothes when we come to church".

Other group says" it don't matter as long as you are decent".

Don't laugh, I saw a church split over exactly this reason.

Tam

 

But when a church splits like that (in the cases you mentioned above) isn't that really ONE congregation - ONE localchurch in one denomination becoming TWO church congregations in ONE denomination?

 

In the Salvation Army church that I grew up in, that split in half at one stage over the issue of public speaking in toungues, half of the group had been going along to a Pentecostal group that met on a Friday night, and had wanted to have a pentecostal type service at the Salvationist Church on the Sunday, yet the other half did not want it, so half stayed and the other half joined the local Apostolic church.

 

Because no one knows exactly what Jesus had in mind or what the Bible "says" or means.

 

The Pope knows -- lets all listen to "him"

 

In the Great Commission Jesus sent out a teaching church:

How can one "contend earnestly for the faith" as Holy Scripture teaches, if "no one knows exactly what Jesus had in mind or what the Bible "says" or means." ?