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Why is all Israel not Israel???

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brother Bob, Nov 7, 2007.

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  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    If He came to His own would they not be the "elect", how come some of the "elect" did not receive Him. Also, why did He have to give the ones who did receive Him, "Power" to become the sons of God, if they were already the "elect"??

    Jhn 1:11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

    Jhn 1:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


    How could they be His "own" and yet not be His??

    Its easy to say, well they were not the "elect", but how could they be "His own" then??

    If they were "born of God", did they not have to be "born again" to be born of God?? If so, then why did God not "born again" all of "His own"?? Was there some reason that God would not even "born again" all of "His own"??

    BBob,
     
    #1 Brother Bob, Nov 7, 2007
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  2. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    His own

    They were His own, but because of tyhier rejection He rejected them.

    Jesus tells us if we disown Him, He will disown us before His Father in Heaven.
     
    #2 psalms109:31, Nov 7, 2007
  3. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    They were His own nationally, but not individually. The elect nation is a group of people who make up the nation which God chose to bring Jesus from.
    Those who did receive Him (individually) were born not of flesh or blood or the will of man, but God. They were His elect individually, but had to be changed in time (born again of God.) Some would say that they were eternally justified. I would not go that far. I would say they were justified when they were given a new nature to receive and believe. They are justified in time, not in eternity past. There is a sense in which God being all knowing and all present, justifies them in all eternity, but for man traveling through this thing known as time, we are not justified until we receive faith and *choose* to receive Christ as Lord and Savior. Hope this makes sense. I wish I was more articulate.
     
    #3 reformedbeliever, Nov 7, 2007
  4. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Unbelief

    The Jews from the beginning God chose them and called them His own.

    They were His people God also included with them aliens among them through circumcism.

    God cut those out for unbelief, not because they were not chosen from the beginning. They were for God's word say's they were. To say Jews are not the chosen of God would be a lie. It is better to follow the scripture which say's they were cut out for unbelief

    We are included with the believing Jews when we hear the Gospel of our salvation having believed, not naturally, but through circumcism of the heart.
     
    #4 psalms109:31, Nov 7, 2007
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Did He not call all of Israel "His Children" when He brought them out of the land of Egypt??

    1Sa 10:18And said unto the children of Israel, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, [and] of them that oppressed you:

    BBob,
     
    #5 Brother Bob, Nov 7, 2007
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    All Israel is not Israel at one level because God chose from the whole stock of Israel a Remant, which we see all through Scripture.
     
    #6 TCGreek, Nov 7, 2007
  7. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Here is the remnant

    Zephaniah 3:12
    But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.
     
    #7 psalms109:31, Nov 7, 2007
  8. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    These are very good questions in reference to your theology, Bob. Here goes...

    "All Israel" designates all spiritual (you know this), religious, and national Israel. It has to be all 3 that Paul is speaking of in Rom 11:26. These are seen in Mt 13:38-44 -- the "wheat" that are alive when He comes again and 2) the "buried treasure," OT and martyred trib believers! Also see Mt 25:13-30 -- those given the "Talents" ("oracles of God") were Jews of all time. When Jesus comes again, He will gather all these, Mt 24:31, into His presence, Rev 20:4, reward them and bring them into HIS kingdom, Col 1:13 ("translated into the kingdom of His dear Son").

    So now do you see that "elect" refers to Israel, the religion and nation in this case?

    And what is the "power to become the Sons of God?" It's the Holy Spirit, Bob! Get it? The instant you are saved, you HAVE the power to be a "son of God!"

    How could they be "His own?" They were MARRIED to Him! God has given them a bill of divorcement but He is going to take them back!

    Most of the issues you raise are comprehended in this, Bob. Postrib, God is going to resurrect all the OT saints to join "their children," living believers/Jews to see Him and believe on Him as we do now. But God taking them back awaits the New Earth when they come down in NJ to His kingdom on earth -- that which we all pray for.

    skypair
     
    #8 skypair, Nov 7, 2007
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  9. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    The physical descendants of Jacob are "born of the flesh":

    Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    the spiritual descendants of faithful Abraham are "born of the spirit":

    Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
    #9 J.D., Nov 7, 2007
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    He didn't bring a remnant out of Eygpt.....?
     
    #10 Brother Bob, Nov 7, 2007
  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I know what the Power is Sky; but what you say does not line up with scripture.

    Rom 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

    It says the "elect" obtained it, when Jesus came to His own. The rest were blinded. So the promise was made to the "elect" and they obtained it, then Israel was not blinded, only in part. You do not have allowances in your theology for true Israel (Elect), having obtained it already according to the word of God. You take some branches that were blinded and call them "true Israel" and that just is not so. Show me by the Holy word of God, where "true Israel" were blinded.

    Skypair; you speak of the divorcement. Did God divorce true Israel, or not???

    BBob,
     
    #11 Brother Bob, Nov 7, 2007
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  12. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Why did He call them "His own", was He playing word games or what??? Scripture says "His own" received him not. I didn't call them "His own", the Lord did.

    BBob,
     
    #12 Brother Bob, Nov 7, 2007
  13. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    By "true Israel, I suspect you mean "spiritual" Israel. In that case, they aren't blinded but are a mixture of Jews and Gentiles.

    But I thought were asking what "all Israel" in Rom 11:26 meant.

    skypair
     
    #13 skypair, Nov 8, 2007
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Do you believe thatRom 11:26 are non-elect, and all of them will be saved in the future?

    I can't see how the Calvinist could believe that according to their theology that only the "elect" will be saved?

    Personally, I believe the door is open to them now, if they will believe in Christ.

    I still would like to know if any or all of the "elect" were divorced??

    BBob,
     
    #14 Brother Bob, Nov 8, 2007
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  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    According to the flesh, they were His brothers, but not according to the Spirit. Spiritually they were the children of the Devil.

    Walk up to a dead man and say, "Come, follow me." If you do not impart life and animation to that dead man, would he have the power to follow you? So those who are dead in trespasses and sin need to be regenerated in order to arise and follow Him. God is not the god of the dead, but of the living.

    Yep.
    So that His own purposes according to election would stand.

    Yes, His own purposes according to election.
     
    #15 Aaron, Nov 8, 2007
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That "corpse" analogy is false. That's not what "spritually dead" means. If it did, take that same dead person and throw them into a fire and tell me what they feel. Hell would have no meaning to a corpse.
     
    #16 webdog, Nov 8, 2007
  17. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    That is a first for me, I never heard before that Jesus came to His "own", meant His brothers.........:)

    He called them "all" His own and only those who "received" Him, did He give power to become sons of God. It seems to me the scripture is saying some of them did something "receive Him" and then were given Power to become the Sons of God.
    He came from Heave to His own. His own in the flesh just don't make sense to me. Does that mean this is a "works" salvation???

    Again, they received the "Power" on a condition and that was those who "received Him".
    So, He gave the election "Power" to become the sons of God, who were the rest that He did not give Power, were they the non-elect. Were they the ones who were blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles???? Or were those who did not receive Power, lost forever??

    If that were all of the "election" and the rest were blinded, they why do some say that the time will come when they will be saved also, if they were non-elect, their children would be non-elect also, wouldn't they??

    BBob,
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Nov 8, 2007
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  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Study out what it means to be a child according to the flesh, and a child according to the spirit, and the matter will be more clear. (This goes for webdog, too.)
     
    #18 Aaron, Nov 8, 2007
  19. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Well, can you explain this for us also.

    Matt: 15
    22: And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
    23: But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
    24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    25: Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
    26: But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
    27: And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
    28: Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

    If those He was sent to were the Spiritual Israel, how come they were "lost"?? So, they were a child by the Spirit, but were "lost"??

    Also, the woman was not even Israel at all.

    They were not His children in the flesh, You got scripture showing where they were His children who were not Spiritual.

    You can't just say something, you have to support it with scripture. We all can just say something, but don't mean anything.

    BBob,
     
    #19 Brother Bob, Nov 8, 2007
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  20. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    No word games, my brother.

    1. On one occasion God called the pagan king Cyrus, His anointed (Isa. 45:1).

    2. At one level they are His own and at another level, they are all not His own. Or we would have Scripture going against Scripture (Rom 9-11).
     
    #20 TCGreek, Nov 8, 2007
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