Why would Paul tell Christians not to do sins they are incapable of doing?

IfbReformer · Feb 23, 2007

Anyone who has been here for a least 5 minutes knows there are about 10,000 threads on the subject of Christians and sin. Specifically some believe on this board that Christians becoming a new creature means they are incapable of doing a certain list of sins including rape, adultery, homosexuality, lying..ect

Instead this debate going in 1000 different directions, and since we have spent much time focusing on passages such as those found in I John about Christians not being able to commit sin, lets now focus on another passage talking about the believer and sin.

The rule on this thread is simply, you must answer this passage, verse by verse, no running off on rabbit trails to get away from answering it.

Ephesians 4:17:32
17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.

20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need. 29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
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Paul begins by telling believers(that is his audience) not to continue on living as the Gentiles do. He remind them that they were taught in Christ to put off, and put on their new self.

Question 1:
If the old self was eradicated when the believed and became a new creature, then why would Paul have to tell these believers to put off their old self?

Question 2:
If speaking falsehood(lying) was a sin Christians were incapable of doing, then why would Paul have to tell the believers to put it off?

Question 3:
If a Christian cannot steal, then why would Paul need to tell believers stop stealing?

Question 4:
If a Christian could not be involved in "bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice" - then why would Paul need to write to believers to put these things off?

Question 5:
I think"every form of malice" pretty much covers it, or at least the Apostle Paul thought that. If we are to put off all these sins, every kind of sin as the Apostle Paul writes us, then does that not mean we are capable as believers of doing every kind of sin?

I look forward to your answers.

Remember, answer the questions, answer the passage, no straw men, and no rabbit trails please.

IFBReformer

EdSutton · Feb 23, 2007

IfbReformer said:

Anyone who has been here for a least 5 minutes knows there are about 10,000 threads on the subject of Christians and sin. Specifically some believe on this board that Christians becoming a new creature means they are incapable of doing a certain list of sins including rape, adultery, homosexuality, lying..ect

Instead this debate going in 1000 different directions, and since we have spent much time focusing on passages such as those found in I John about Christians not being able to commit sin, lets now focus on another passage talking about the believer and sin.

The rule on this thread is simply, you must answer this passage, verse by verse, no running off on rabbit trails to get away from answering it.

Paul begins by telling believers(that is his audience) not to continue on living as the Gentiles do. He remind them that they were taught in Christ to put off, and put on their new self.

Question 1:
If the old self was eradicated when the believed and became a new creature, then why would Paul have to tell these believers to put off their old self?

Question 2:
If speaking falsehood(lying) was a sin Christians were incapable of doing, then why would Paul have to tell the believers to put it off?

Question 3:
If a Christian cannot steal, then why would Paul need to tell believers stop stealing?

Question 4:
If a Christian could not be involved in "bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice" - then why would Paul need to write to believers to put these things off?

Question 5:
I think"every form of malice" pretty much covers it, or at least the Apostle Paul thought that. If we are to put off all these sins, every kind of sin as the Apostle Paul writes us, then does that not mean we are capable as believers of doing every kind of sin?

I look forward to your answers.

Remember, answer the questions, answer the passage, no straw men, and no rabbit trails please.

IFBReformer
Click to expand...

Good post! Sorry, I did not 'answer' any questions, since the passage and your exposition both seem self-explanatory, so all I can say is I agree.

Ed

tinytim · Feb 23, 2007

The answer here is quite simple..

A Christian can sin.

There. Onto the next thread.

webdog · Feb 23, 2007

Question 1:
If the old self was eradicated when the believed and became a new creature, then why would Paul have to tell these believers to put off their old self?
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Because in the same sense we can put off an old shirt to put on a new one, we can always turn right around and put the old shirt back on, too.

Question 2:
If speaking falsehood(lying) was a sin Christians were incapable of doing, then why would Paul have to tell the believers to put it off?
Click to expand...

If lying were impossible for a Christian (follower of Christ), the answer Peter would have given those who asked him if he was with Christ would have been quite different.

Question 3:
If a Christian cannot steal, then why would Paul need to tell believers stop stealing?
Click to expand...

Because we can, and do. I would dare any BB believer to say they have never stolen time away from their employer (hourly or salary).

Question 4:
If a Christian could not be involved in "bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice" - then why would Paul need to write to believers to put these things off?
Click to expand...

See answer to question 1

Question 5:
I think"every form of malice" pretty much covers it, or at least the Apostle Paul thought that. If we are to put off all these sins, every kind of sin as the Apostle Paul writes us, then does that not mean we are capable as believers of doing every kind of sin?
Click to expand...

You got it!

donnA · Feb 23, 2007

IfbReformer, I certainly agree, we are continually given instructions in the bible on christians stop sinning, and what to do when we do sin. No where does it lead us to believe we are sin free.

Helen · Feb 23, 2007

Let me add one little bit to all the agreements here: we also strive to become sin-free. We do not want to sin, if we are His, but do and are ashamed of it and repent when we do.

So there is no license to sin, as some have claimed. But there is the acknowledgment that we do still sin and must fight against it, God always being there to give us a way out of any temptation. As we mature in Christ we learn to look for that way out and take it, instead of giving in. And, slowly but definitely surely, we find out desire not to sin is becoming a reality in the actions and thoughts in our lives, as the Holy Spirit is faithfully transforming us into the image of Christ. And He is truly faithful to finish the good work He has begun in us.

There will come a time when we don't sin. Praise the Lord for that.

But right now the reality of our imperfection/uncompleteness means that we do, like it or not. The point really is to NOT like it and strive against it, working with the Holy Spirit in our lives and not against Him.

PASTOR MHG · Feb 23, 2007

Amen Brother!

I wholeheartedly agree. I actually pointed out the Ephesians 4 passage way back on the 1st thread, but it was convienently ignored it seems.

Thank you for your thorough exposition of the passage.

Max

Brother Bob · Feb 23, 2007

Eph. 2:
context my friend, context

1: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6: And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Are the people you are talking about some of the unsaved among them or are they delivered from such and made to sit together in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.

Someone else said, he could see it now the saved saying "Come on Jesus, being He is with us always, lets go over and hit on the neighbor's wife". Or, "come on Jesus, lets go get us a homo".

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world. (Context)

17: This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18: Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
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The problem is not that Paul told them not to sin, but that you say they do those things Paul said not to do.
You speak as others and not realize the time of transition there were the unsaved among the saved.

And Paul continues:

Ephesians, chapter 5

1: Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2: And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.
3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4: Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5: For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (You can call them saved if you want)
6: Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7: Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

I pray your eyes will be opened!!

Paul continues;

10: Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11: Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13: Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14: Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15: And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16: Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17: And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Context my friend, context.

Shiloh · Feb 23, 2007

context my friend, contextby dear Bro Bob

What do you do with ICor.3?

Brother Bob · Feb 23, 2007

What do you do with ICor.3?
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1 Corinthians, chapter 3

Supposed to stay with Eph. but no problem. (Context)

1: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2: I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3: For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4: For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5: Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6: I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7: So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9: For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17: If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are

Sure hope you are not suggesting that we worship God with the carnal mind, for it is sin against God, but do what you want.

donnA · Feb 23, 2007

1Jn 1:9 is instruction to the christian, when they sin.

Brother Bob · Feb 23, 2007

1Jn 1:9 is instruction to the christian, when they sin.
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Do you think we should include 1Jn 3:9??? Or toss it out?

IfbReformer · Feb 23, 2007

Brother Bob said:

Eph. 2:
context my friend, context

1: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6: And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Are the people you are talking about some of the unsaved among them or are they delivered from such and made to sit together in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.

Someone else said, he could see it now the saved saying "Come on Jesus, being He is with us always, lets go over and hit on the neighbor's wife". Or, "come on Jesus, lets go get us a homo".

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world. (Context)

The problem is not that Paul told them not to sin, but that you say they do those things Paul said not to do.
You speak as others and not realize the time of transition there were the unsaved among the saved.
Click to expand...

Nice try Bob, but vs 30 puts blows your theory out of the water that he was talking to saved and unsaved alike in this context:

Ephesians 4:30
30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption
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How can you grieve the Holy Spirit by whom you sealed till the day of redemption(great verse for eternal security as well!) by doing these things he talks of and not be a believer?

So clearly these are believers indwelled with the Holy Spirit who may do these things, so then with that in mind what does Paul mean when he says

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world.

Walking according to the curse of this world is having the inability to say no to sin, as we discussed earlier. Now with the new nature, we can obey the Holy Spirit, we can say no sin, we should say no to sin. But the reality is we still fail, and we don't always yield to the Spirit, in fact sometimes we grive the Spirit as Paul states we are capable of doing.

Brother Bob said:

And Paul continues:

Ephesians, chapter 5

1: Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2: And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.
3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4: Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5: For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6: Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7: Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

I pray your eyes will be opened!!

Click to expand...

Bob,

Ephesians 5 only supports what I have said from Ephesians 4. What would he tell these believers in verse 7 not to be partakers of these things he lists above if they were not capable partaking in them?

Why do we need to warn Christians to stay away from certain sins if they would never act on them in the first place? It would be easy. Paul could have just said, after you saved you will not be able to fall into any of these sins, and if you see someone claiming to be a brother who falls into any of these sins, you need to tell him he is not really saved and he needs to get saved.

No, he addresses his concern about sin to believers! None of us are saying we should condone or comfort those who do these things, we should call on them to repent of their sin! But we will not tell the person because they did this is that sin, the could not have been saved and they need to get saved now. God forgives, the person only needs to repent and restore their fellowship with God.

What about vs 5:

5: For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Again this is speaking of someone who sins with impunity, who lives as whoremonger or idolator and the like. If your life is unbroken life of sin after making a proffesion of faith, then you never really believed. Belief will result in some change, and a desire to please God.

But this does not mean a believer could not fall into any of these sins, recognize the error of his way, repent and restore his fellowship with God.

IFBReformer

Lacy Evans · Feb 23, 2007

IfbReformer said:

Nice try Bob, but vs 30 puts blows your theory out of the water that he was talking to saved and unsaved alike in this context:

How can you grieve the Holy Spirit by whom you sealed till the day of redemption(great verse for eternal security as well!) by doing these things he talks of and not be a believer?
Click to expand...

No No No! Paul switches without warning or indication between false professors and "really truly really true truely real" Christians.:tonofbricks:

IfbReformer · Feb 23, 2007

Brother Bob said:

Quote:
1Jn 1:9 is instruction to the christian, when they sin.
Do you think we should include 1Jn 3:9??? Or toss it out?
Click to expand...

No we should not toss out 1 John 3:9 in lite of I John 1:9 anymore than you should write off Ephesians 4 as speaking to unbelievers because it does not fit what you think.

We should interpret Scripture with Scripture. In lite of passages like I Jn 1:9 and Ephesians 4 we know I John 3:9 is not saying a Christian never sins. It is either saying the our inward man(the new man) does not sin(but the flesh still does) or it is speaking of a continual, unbroken life of sin with no remorse or understanding of the gravity of our sin.

But again, even if it speaks of the inward man(as Paul spoke of in Romans 7) we are not perfect yet, we don't just have the inward man, we still have the flesh with us till we get our glorified bodies - thats why we will still sin until we put off these bodies.

IFBReformer

His Blood Spoke My Name · Feb 23, 2007

All these verses in Ephesians 4 still do not prove that the sins Paul mentioned were committed by the saved before salvation.

One may have started lying afterward, etc.

Let me ask, If the Lord convicted you of, say, stealing. Would you not give up the stealing? I know I would.

When one gets saved, the sins that one is convicted of are removed far from that one and cast into the depths of the sea. Are you able to reach farther than God can throw?

Brother Bob · Feb 23, 2007

Again this is speaking of someone who sins with impunity, who lives as whoremonger or idolator and the like. If your life is unbroken life of sin after making a proffesion of faith, then you never really believed. Belief will result in some change, and a desire to please God.

But this does not mean a believer could not fall into any of these sins, recognize the error of his way, repent and restore his fellowship with God.

IFBReformer
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May I ask, how do you know that. do you have some scripture you could give me?

Brother Bob · Feb 23, 2007

We should interpret Scripture with Scripture. In lite of passages like I Jn 1:9 and Ephesians 4 we know I John 3:9 is not saying a Christian never sins. It is either saying the our inward man(the new man) does not sin(but the flesh still does) or it is speaking of a continual, unbroken life of sin with no remorse or understanding of the gravity of our sin.
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what part of "sin not" am I not understanding?

2Pe 2:20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Is this the same group that He was talking to in Eph 4:?

Eph. 2:
1: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Maybe Lacy can help you he is humoreous today.

How can you possibly know that there was no "unsaved" in the group?

DHK · Feb 23, 2007

Why would Paul tell Christians not to do sins they are incapable of doing?

Why would a parent tell a child not to play in a busy intersection?
Is the child not capable of keeping this command?
If the child disobeys the parent will it be "a sin unto death?"

Are there commands that a parent gives their children that they cannot obey?
Does our heaven Father do the same thing? Or is that just our perception of what the Scripture says? I have not seen anything that Paul has commanded that Christians are incapable of doing? What I have seen is a lot of Scripture being misconstrued and taken out of context.

Brother Bob · Feb 23, 2007

Are there commands that a parent gives their children that they cannot obey?
Does our heaven Father do the same thing? Or is that just our perception of what the Scripture says? I have not seen anything that Paul has commanded that Christians are incapable of doing? What I have seen is a lot of Scripture being misconstrued and taken out of context.

__________________
DHK
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You got that right and you lead the pack.IMO

He said, I will never leave you. So, don't worry about running into the street.

Why would Paul tell Christians not to do sins they are incapable of doing?

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