The 7th dayers deceive many folks. Though some are saved, they put the yoke of law upon your head, instead of our Lords Grace.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Will christians be punished for bad deeds?
- Thread starter xdisciplex
- Start date
hillclimber1 said:
Thats probably because by God's grace you are supposed to do what God says.
...a simple concept that many just do not get.
Rom:3:31: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Others would answer YES we DO make void the Law through faith
Rom:6:1,2:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Others would answer YES we SHALL continue in sin (transgression of the law) that grace may abound
Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Others would answer YES we SHALL sin because we are not under the law but under grace
So MAYBE you ought to take a second look at what the Seventh Day Adventists are telling you.
Perhaps.
You claim we are deceivers?
1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Claudia
Last edited by a moderator:
...and how you can just IGNORE all of that is beyond me, really it is.
I guess that every time you come across Bible verses like these (and there are SCORES of them, you would just have to cover your eyes and pretend like they weren't there. And I just cannot imagine what that must be like for you)
Mt:5:16-19:
16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Has Heaven and Earth passed away and someone just forgot to tell me?
Did you take note of the verse where Jesus said "Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven" ?
Contrary to popular Christian opinion, it is all about GOD... not primarily about YOU.
We are supposed to be doing good works out of our love for God to show the world what He is like.
Not the legalistic "Gee Im so glad Jesus died for me, Im saved, now I can go out and be like the world" idea. "Gee Im so glad I am legally off the hook".
Dont you see that if you take that attitude you are just as selfish, just as self-centered as you always were?
You arent supposed to just run around acting as you have always acted... and claim to be a Christian. Now you read this and tell me who is deceiving who here?
Ephesians 5:
3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4: Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5: For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6: Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7: Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8: For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light
well so much for "Im just saved by grace" then. The FACT IS that the Bible clearly tells YOU that "no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God".
Now you can dance around that all you like but thats not going to change anything. And you can call me a deceiver all you like.. go right ahead if it makes you feel better for awhile. Because thats all its going to be.. is FOR AWHILE.
Mt:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness)
and let me reiterate, you dont do good works to TRY TO GET TO HEAVEN. IF that IS YOUR MOTIVATION, YOU HAVE MISSED THE ENTIRE THING.
You rely totally upon the grace of God because YOU ARE NOTHING. You also surrender yourself entirely to God to allow Him to work through you and to reveal His character to the world... the principles of the Law.. once again, because YOU ARE NOTHING.
BOTH are complete unselfishness. Too bad so many Christians see only the first part of that.
You are supposed to DIE. Self is supposed to DIE. That is what Baptism is all about. Self dies then you rise back up again into a NEW CREATURE.
Carefully read this:
Romans 6:
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
....did you get the being DEAD TO SIN part? did you get the part where it says "shall we continue in sin that grace shall abound? GOD FORBID". How shall we, that are dead to sin live any longer therein" part?
For God sakes people. Read your Bible!
Dont be accusing Seventh Day Adventists of deceiving people and putting them under the yoke of the Law. MY BIBLE says we are supposed to be DEAD TO SIN and no longer living in it... EVEN THOUGH we are under grace. Does not your Bible say the same thing?
dont you know what SIN is?
1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Now if you want to go telling everybody to just believe you are under grace so you can go and sin, well Houston we have a problem then. Wouldnt you say?
Claudia
I guess that every time you come across Bible verses like these (and there are SCORES of them, you would just have to cover your eyes and pretend like they weren't there. And I just cannot imagine what that must be like for you)
Mt:5:16-19:
16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Has Heaven and Earth passed away and someone just forgot to tell me?
Did you take note of the verse where Jesus said "Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven" ?
Contrary to popular Christian opinion, it is all about GOD... not primarily about YOU.
We are supposed to be doing good works out of our love for God to show the world what He is like.
Not the legalistic "Gee Im so glad Jesus died for me, Im saved, now I can go out and be like the world" idea. "Gee Im so glad I am legally off the hook".
Dont you see that if you take that attitude you are just as selfish, just as self-centered as you always were?
You arent supposed to just run around acting as you have always acted... and claim to be a Christian. Now you read this and tell me who is deceiving who here?
Ephesians 5:
3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4: Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5: For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6: Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7: Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8: For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light
well so much for "Im just saved by grace" then. The FACT IS that the Bible clearly tells YOU that "no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God".
Now you can dance around that all you like but thats not going to change anything. And you can call me a deceiver all you like.. go right ahead if it makes you feel better for awhile. Because thats all its going to be.. is FOR AWHILE.
Mt:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness)
and let me reiterate, you dont do good works to TRY TO GET TO HEAVEN. IF that IS YOUR MOTIVATION, YOU HAVE MISSED THE ENTIRE THING.
You rely totally upon the grace of God because YOU ARE NOTHING. You also surrender yourself entirely to God to allow Him to work through you and to reveal His character to the world... the principles of the Law.. once again, because YOU ARE NOTHING.
BOTH are complete unselfishness. Too bad so many Christians see only the first part of that.
You are supposed to DIE. Self is supposed to DIE. That is what Baptism is all about. Self dies then you rise back up again into a NEW CREATURE.
Carefully read this:
Romans 6:
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
....did you get the being DEAD TO SIN part? did you get the part where it says "shall we continue in sin that grace shall abound? GOD FORBID". How shall we, that are dead to sin live any longer therein" part?
For God sakes people. Read your Bible!
Dont be accusing Seventh Day Adventists of deceiving people and putting them under the yoke of the Law. MY BIBLE says we are supposed to be DEAD TO SIN and no longer living in it... EVEN THOUGH we are under grace. Does not your Bible say the same thing?
dont you know what SIN is?
1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Now if you want to go telling everybody to just believe you are under grace so you can go and sin, well Houston we have a problem then. Wouldnt you say?
Claudia
Last edited by a moderator:
Dispen4ever has merely given an opinion with not foundation to back it up. I would hardly say that he has given anyone the truth. But since you seem to support what he has said, maybe you would want to offer your Scriptural foundation for that belief and then be willing to discuss the texts that you bring to the table? Or are we supposed to believe you and dispen4ever just based on your say so? I'm sure you are both nice folks, but if you want people to believe what you are offering it must be more than just baseless opinion.
I can't answer for the Seventh Day folks, but I can respond to your statement as far as where I am coming from. In a couple of Claudia's post she has clearly shown that we are to be keeping the Lord's commandments if we love Him and are to be considered His disciples. That in no way deminishes His grace, because it is only by His grace that we are able to obey.
Brother Bob
New Member
Wonder what the NT means when it says the righteous of the Law is fulfilled in us. Think that means we are breaking the Commandments?
Wonder when the Scripture say Jesus came to fulfill the Law if that means to actually fullfill the righteous of the Law. Does anyone think Jesus broke the Commandments or fulfilled the righteous of them?
Wonder when the Scripture say Jesus came to fulfill the Law if that means to actually fullfill the righteous of the Law. Does anyone think Jesus broke the Commandments or fulfilled the righteous of them?
xdisciplex
New Member
All these different opinions turn me off. I ask myself where is the sense of wasting strength for trying to figure out what's correct and being dragged down by it?
Would it not be better to simply accept the fact that there are hundreds of different opinions and you cannot really know what's right and simply try to get along in life? Imagine 100 years ago. People which had to work in a factory all day didn't even have time to think about such things, they simply lived their lives. They didn't even have the "luxury" or maybe the punishment of thinking about theological issues. If all it does is burn you out then I can as well simply stop trying to figure out things because I don't find answers anyway. It's totally senseless. Every christian says something different but acts like he has the one and only truth while all others are in the darkness and know nothing. This is deflating.
Would it not be better to simply accept the fact that there are hundreds of different opinions and you cannot really know what's right and simply try to get along in life? Imagine 100 years ago. People which had to work in a factory all day didn't even have time to think about such things, they simply lived their lives. They didn't even have the "luxury" or maybe the punishment of thinking about theological issues. If all it does is burn you out then I can as well simply stop trying to figure out things because I don't find answers anyway. It's totally senseless. Every christian says something different but acts like he has the one and only truth while all others are in the darkness and know nothing. This is deflating.
xdisciplex said:
well I would say DONT ASK next time then. Hows that?
Because to be truly upfront about this, I often get the impression that you really do not want any answers, you are trying to continually bring up difficult questions in order to try to shake people's faith in the Bible.
I mean, all you are really doing all the time is saying "Hey everyone look at all these contradictions in the Bible" or "Hey look everybody, your Christian God is so hard to serve, He makes me 'scared' "
well you know what? You dont like it when someone shows you they arent contradictions at all, and that what you need to do is actually just DO WHAT GOD SAYS.
and with you, EVERYTHING is deflating or depressing.
Just being honest. and I know it probably wont go over very well.
Last edited by a moderator:
xdisciplex
New Member
Claudia_T said:
maybe it's become I am depressed? ever thought about this?
xdisciplex
New Member
Claudia_T said:
wow! it's so easy, Claudia, isn't it? why did you not become a counselor? it's so easy! the solution for ALL problems. simply focus on God and others. Yay! :BangHead:
such answers anger me because they are usually given by people which think that there's always an easy way out. you dont even have to listen to the other person or try to put yourself in her shoes because the answer is always the same for everybody. simply focus on God and others and everything will be fine. gosh.
this is a totally insensitive, superficial answer. you could as well just slap the person in the face it's the same because with this phrase you simply totally deny the problems which this person has. shall i translate for you what this phrase really means? it means: shut up and stop whining, your problems aren't real problems simply do something productive and everything will be fine.
as if it was so easy.
xdisciplex,
Sorry but I have been to plenty of Christian Forums where Atheists or X Christians make it a point to hang out and introduce just as many subjects as they can to try to make the God of Christianity seem foolish and the Bible to seem foolish as well. They end up leading weak Christians who arent rooted and grounded in the truth astray, which is their goal.
Perhaps this isnt the case with you.
Perhaps you go to a Church where the Preacher is telling you you are going to Hell every five minutes if you dont straighten up.
In any case, whether its one of those two things or something different, I think you need to get down and start reading the Bible in a whole new light, and ask God to sweep away all the previous misconceptions you have about Him, looking instead for the love of God instead of some Tyrant that you seem to believe that He is.. just waiting every minute for you to slip up so that He will be able to punish you.
Because to be honest, it really irks me that you continually paint God out to be just waiting every moment to destroy us and that the Bible is full of contradictions. It is hard for me not to say what I have said to you.
Claudia
Sorry but I have been to plenty of Christian Forums where Atheists or X Christians make it a point to hang out and introduce just as many subjects as they can to try to make the God of Christianity seem foolish and the Bible to seem foolish as well. They end up leading weak Christians who arent rooted and grounded in the truth astray, which is their goal.
Perhaps this isnt the case with you.
Perhaps you go to a Church where the Preacher is telling you you are going to Hell every five minutes if you dont straighten up.
In any case, whether its one of those two things or something different, I think you need to get down and start reading the Bible in a whole new light, and ask God to sweep away all the previous misconceptions you have about Him, looking instead for the love of God instead of some Tyrant that you seem to believe that He is.. just waiting every minute for you to slip up so that He will be able to punish you.
Because to be honest, it really irks me that you continually paint God out to be just waiting every moment to destroy us and that the Bible is full of contradictions. It is hard for me not to say what I have said to you.
Claudia
Last edited by a moderator:
If you accept that then you are accepting a lie straight from the enemy. The Bible tells us that we can know the Truth and that the Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us into all Truth if we will allow Him to.
Are there 100s of different opinions? Yes. But there have been hundreds of different opinions throughout history.
Even when Jesus walked this earth teaching it didn't take long at all for "opinions" to start creaping into the mix.
And that shouldn't discourage us, but encourage us that the Bible is true, because it has never promised that everyone would be of the same mind, and it has even told us that folks would turn away from sound doctrine and start listening to fables and doctrines from demons.
Pray for wisdom and discernment, but you have to pray believing that He will grant it to you. If you pray with doubt it will not happen. And that's not a word of faith thing
You are starting to see some things in Scripture that if you will continue to study them through you are going to be absolutely amazed, but there are folks that would try to steer you away from God's Truth even though for all intents and purposes they mean well. That's why they are called sheep in wolves clothing
The answer is not to quit seeing God as He is which is Perfectly Righteous and Perfectly Holy and Perfectly Just, but to find the balance between these Truths and His love.
Unfortunately a lot of Christendom chooses to not even consider His Holiness, Righteousness or Justice in favor of His love, but to do so is equally as wrong as not seeing His love for the other things. He is all those things, not just one or two of them.
If we don't obey Him because we love Him, then we better obey Him because we fear Him. Hebrews tells us that it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
But at the same time as we mature we should be moving further away from fear (although never leaving it completely behind) and obeying more out of love for Him.
This type of question always reminds me to think about this question. How many sins did Christ pay for the cross of Calvary? Well then if he paid for ALL sin lie with the Father, who has excepted the Son,s payment require another pavement from an individual who is incapable of paying? Really makes you wonder doesn't it?
mima said:
Right, the answer is we cannot "Pay" for anything.
The Bible says BUY OF ME:
Rv:3:18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
The Pearl of Great Price says the Pearl was obtained AT GREAT PRICE...
well whats that all about?
We cant buy and we cant pay for anything.
BUT this guy in the parable... God forgave him of his debt, he could NOT pay it. But then after getting loosed out of prison he turns around and he treats other badly. Well what do you think happened to him? He ended up back in prison again. The mercy and love of the lord had no real effect upon him, thats why.
Matthew 18:
23: Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24: And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25: But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26: The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27: Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28: But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29: And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30: And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31: So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32: Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34: And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35: So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
You BUY of God by giving up all you have for Him. The man in the Pearl of Great price parable represents both Christ and us. Jesus gave up His all for us, we are to give up our all for Him.
But you cannot EARN salvation.
Rom:6:6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
you give up YOURSELF... Your ALL -for Christ. Your old life of sin. Its supposed to DIE. This isnt to be regarded as any kind of a PAYMENT... or as EARNING salvation, for that is an impossibility.
THIS is exactly where Christians get so confused about WORKS and their purpose.
When that man in the parable came out of the prison house he was supposed to have gotten an entirely different view of things, but he didnt. He instead went on just exactly as he did before he was thrown in there.
2Cor:5:15: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Claudia
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
hillclimber1 said:
They read and accept "the ENTIRE Bible" instead of slicing it up into snippets of "good Bible" that are OK to read vs large sections of "bad bible" that one must not read or they are under the yoke of the law.
By agreeing to slice and dice the Word as you do - you are creating "another gospel" unknown by the Bible authors in both NT and OT.
Has this occurred to you?
Did you notice that when Paul says "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God Forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31 --- that he places his doctrine in bold opposition to your beliefs on that subject?
In Christ,
Bob