Will- Is there not a cause?

[Luke2427]

This seems to be the Arminian or non-reformed hang up.

When it comes to soteriology they are willing to ask why all the way up to "choice" and then they don't want to take another step nor ask "why" another single time.

I think this is because they know to go ONE MORE step past "choice" will cause them to become Calvinists.

They seem to think that choices do not have causes.

They deny the law of nature God put in place called "Cause and Effect".

For every effect there is a cause. A choice is an effect which has a cause.

Choices do not appear ex nihilo. There are causes, reasons why people choose what they choose.

With John (who chooses Christ) and Jack (who does not) they are only willing to investigate back to the point where they make their choice- and no further.

When you ask them, "But WHY did John choose Christ and Jack not" they say, "He simply did."

But this is meaningless. They deny that there is a cause or refuse to face that fact.

Something CAUSED them to choose what they chose.

Some cleverly say, "Well it was the choices the made all through life up TO the point where they made a choice concerning Christ." But this leaves them with the same problem. WHY did they make that chain of choices differently? Environment? Their personal nature? WHY did they make the choices they made?

Now someone will say- "Well we can't know- it is different for everyone and we can't know their hearts." Two things here:

#1- Fine. But you still have to deal with why one has a heart that drives them to make choices that lead them to Christ and why the other has a heart that drives them to make choices that lead them to hell. Whyn the difference in hearts and who controls those differences- who caused those differences?

#2- We DO know some things about all human hearts. We know that they are all desperately wicked and deceitful above all things.



Do you believe that there is a cause for every choice and every chain of choices?

If so, why are the causes so different for Jack who perishes and John who lives forever?

Who ultimately controlled those causes? Missionaries, Christians, Parents, School teachers, bullies, friends,- or God.

If God controlled the causes for the choices, then guess what- God is the one who determines who comes to Christ and who does not.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A spiritual reason is what your asking for, right? God changes the heart.

 

[Luke2427]

A spiritual reason is what your asking for, right?

I think it is a spiritual reason but I'd be thrilled to here a non-reformed person give ANY reason for choices made.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think it is a spiritual reason but I'd be thrilled to here a non-reformed person give ANY reason for choices made.

How they goin to do dat....they reject DoG.....but I will shut up.

 

[kyredneck]

...Who ultimately controlled those causes? Missionaries, Christians, Parents, School teachers, bullies, friends,- or God.

If God controlled the causes for the choices, then guess what- God is the one who determines who comes to Christ and who does not.

who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [Jn 1]

...that no flesh should glory before God. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus....He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. [1 Cor 1]

 

[Luke2427]

who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [Jn 1]

...that no flesh should glory before God. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus....He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. [1 Cor 1]

Absolutely. The Word of God is ABUNDANTLY clear.

There IS a cause for the choice to come to Christ and that SINGULAR cause is God.

 

[matt wade]

Why do I feel like I'm being attacked by a cult around every corner?

Some cleverly say, "Well it was the choices the made all through life up TO the point where they made a choice concerning Christ." But this leaves them with the same problem. WHY did they make that chain of choices differently? Environment? Their personal nature? WHY did they make the choices they made?

Free will.

Why did you choose the breakfast that you ate this morning and I chose a different breakfast? If we don't have free will to make individual choices, then wouldn't we each be eating the same breakfast each morning?

 

[quantumfaith]

I surrender to great polemics of my opponents. May you revel in your victory. Oh and by the way

Have a very Merry Christmas (Even so, a Meaningful Christmas)

Bless you all

 

[Luke2427]

Why do I feel like I'm being attacked by a cult around every corner?



Free will.

Why did you choose the breakfast that you ate this morning and I chose a different breakfast? If we don't have free will to make individual choices, then wouldn't we each be eating the same breakfast each morning?

There is a CAUSE Matt why you chose to eat the breakfast you chose to eat.

It has to do with your tastes and many other factors.

But there is a CAUSE for that choice as there is a CAUSE for EVERY choice and the CHOICE to come to Christ is no different.

There is a CAUSE for why people choose Christ and there is a CAUSE for why people choose to reject Christ.

The question is WHY is it that some choose the one and others the other.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I surrender to great polemics of my opponents. May you revel in your victory. Oh and by the way

Have a very Merry Christmas (Even so, a Meaningful Christmas)

Bless you all

Well considering this all & that its Christmas..... JOYOUS NOEL :wavey::laugh:

 

[annsni]

I chose the breakfast I chose because I preferred it. It was my desire to have it just because it pleased me the most.

I do think there is a cause to our decisions - our heart.

 

[quantumfaith]

Well considering this all & that its Christmas..... JOYOUS NOEL :wavey::laugh:

EWF: for the record and clarification, my use of "opponents" strictly meant in the intellectual sense.

God Bless

As for Clark Pinnock, I do respect his scholarship, but strongly disagree with his conclusions regarding theology.

 

[Luke2427]

I chose the breakfast I chose because I preferred it. It was my desire to have it just because it pleased me the most.

I do think there is a cause to our decisions - our heart.

BINGO!

This seems so plain to me- I CANNOT comprehend why some cannot get this.

I honestly think it is because, at least subconsciously, they realize to admit that the will has causes admits Calvinism is true.

Because God controls all causes.

Will is not something that exists outside of causes. Will is not arbitrary.

 

[matt wade]

BINGO!

What are you BINGOing about? She made my point. She specifically said:

I chose the breakfast I chose because I preferred it. It was my desire to have it just because it pleased me the most.

I (and John in your example) chose Christ because we preferred it. It was our desire to have it just because it pleased us the most. Jack did not prefer Christ. He did not desire Him, because He did not please Jack the most. The world pleased Jack the most.

 

[Havensdad]

Why do I feel like I'm being attacked by a cult around every corner?



Free will.

Why did you choose the breakfast that you ate this morning and I chose a different breakfast? If we don't have free will to make individual choices, then wouldn't we each be eating the same breakfast each morning?

Because God gave you different likes and dislikes by affecting your tastebuds, and the way your brain receives signals from them. So, you chose that breakfast because God made you that way.

So you "chose" based on the desire that God gave you. It was not a "free" choice. You could have chosen to eat Spinach, but the question is, why didn't you? Because of "free choice"? No...

 

[Luke2427]

What are you BINGOing about? She made my point. She specifically said:




I (and John in your example) chose Christ because we preferred it. It was our desire to have it just because it pleased us the most. Jack did not prefer Christ. He did not desire Him, because He did not please Jack the most. The world pleased Jack the most.

No, I assure you she is NOT making your point. She is saying that there is a cause for why people choose what they choose and that cause is our heart.

Your desires are shaped by forces you have no control over.

The arrangement of the taste buds on your tongue, your genetics, your upbringing, your environment, your training, etc, etc etc...

These are all causes for why you chose what you chose.

Something CAUSES you to choose the things you choose.

You don't just choose it willy nilly.

Ann understands this- you are misunderstanding what she is saying.

 

[annsni]

What are you BINGOing about? She made my point. She specifically said:




I (and John in your example) chose Christ because we preferred it. It was our desire to have it just because it pleased us the most. Jack did not prefer Christ. He did not desire Him, because He did not please Jack the most. The world pleased Jack the most.

Do you think that you and John had a better heart to be able to choose Christ and Jack did not desire it because his heart was bad?

 

[Luke2427]

Because God gave you different likes and dislikes by affecting your tastebuds, and the way your brain receives signals from them. So, you chose that breakfast because God made you that way.

And what does that mean? It means GOD controls your choices.

This is a hard pill for some to swallow.

Havensdad, I would really appreciate it if you can find time to give me your thoughts on the OP in this thread.

 

[Luke2427]

Do you think that you and John had a better heart to be able to choose Christ and Jack did not desire it because his heart was bad?

Interestingly enough, this is exactly the case, isn't it?

We DO choose Christ- those of us who are saved. This is something we Reformed believe that the "non-reformed" often miss.

But we believe that we choose Christ BECAUSE God gives us a new heart.

That makes GOD the determining agent of whether or not a man goes to heaven- not man.

 

[matt wade]

Because God gave you different likes and dislikes by affecting your tastebuds, and the way your brain receives signals from them. So, you chose that breakfast because God made you that way.

So you "chose" based on the desire that God gave you. It was not a "free" choice. You could have chosen to eat Spinach, but the question is, why didn't you? Because of "free choice"? No...

So along your line of thinking, people murder other people because God made them that way. People rape little children because God made them that way.

It must be a sad thing to worship such an evil god. My God would never do that.