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Willing to Believe: Pelagius

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Feb 4, 2008.

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  1. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    This is a perfect example of why theological "labels" don't work unless someone claims to believe all its points. Usually when anyone calls you a "Pelagian," they are saying that you hold to the basic "goodness" of man and God never commands what you can't do. There are 18 points to Pelagius "system," many of which all will disagree with -- I'll show you (my comments in parentheses)

    The "Arminian" label likewise is mainly associated with those who believe that grace is resisible, even such that salvation can be lost. But most would agree with his "depravity" point (we'll see later).

    "Pelagius rooted his view of human nature and free will mainly in his doctrine of creation. Free will consists chiefly in the ability to choose either good or evil. ... This ability is given to man by God in creation,and it is an essential of man's constituent nature." So here are his "18 points:"

    "1) God's highest attributes are his righteousness and his justice." (Age of Reason said of these "attributes" that "God died by 1000 qualtifications." Truly, God can be described in an infinite number of human ways!)
    2) Everything God creates is good. (True)
    3) As created, nature cannot be changed essentially." (Nah.)
    4) Human nature is indestructibly good." (Nah.)
    5) Evil is an act we can avoid." (Nah - doesn't account for "secret faults")
    6) Sin comes via Satan's snares and sensuous lust." (Starts that way anyway)
    7) There can be sinless men." (No -- so why would you call any believer a "Perlagian?")
    8) Adam was created with free will and natural holiness." (?? - innocence more likely)
    9) Adam sinned through free will. (Yeah)
    10) Adam's progeny did not inherit from him natural death." (True -- Adam had to eat from the "tree of life" to live eternally)
    11) Neither Adam's sin nor his guilt was transmitted." (True, Ezek 18:20)
    12) All men are created as Adam was before the fall." (Technically, no)
    13) The habit of sin weakens the will." (Or "hardens" the heart -- I think we can agree)
    14) The grace of God facilitates goodness but is not necessary to achieve it." (Depends on the definition of goodness, no?)
    15) The grace of creation yields perfect men." (Adamantly NOT! Innocent infants, yes; perfect men, no!)
    16) The grace of God's law illuminates and instructs." (There is NO grace in the law!)
    17) Christ works chiefly by His example." (NO!)
    18) Grace is given according to justice and merit." (It is clear Pelagius should have been considered a "good Catholic" -- and he was, then wasn't when Augustine pointed out a few other FACTS! :laugh:)

    What are Pelagius "contributions" to truth? God is in no way responsible for evil. He recognized that sin and sin guilt are NOT transmitted to his descendants. Habitual sin hardens the heart. Nobody but Peralius was/is a "Pelagian!"

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Feb 4, 2008
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Sin is indeed transmitted generationally ( see Romans 5:12-17 ) .
    Pelagians do exist -- Charles Finney was a prime example .
     
    #2 Rippon, Feb 4, 2008
  3. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    What is Ezek 18:20 saying then? or Rom 7:9? or John 9:2-3 (who sinned that he was BORN blind? "NEITHER." Jesus said.)? or read Luke 18:16 (is the kingdom of God made up of sinners?)? Sure, anyone can pick out Bible verses here and there that the believe allude to innate sin guilt or sin. But here are passages that tell us clearly the unvarnished truth which we are expected by God to receive.

    Innate sin guilt is merely a human "device" invented to baptize infants and "elect" them to heaven much as the ECF's thought circumcision was to the Jews (except, of course, only OT males were "elect" if that was the case!). It has become abundantly clear even to Reformers/Calvinists that that is NOT the function of baptism, infant or otherwise.

    We come to that around chapt 8. I think you will be surprised at Sproul's view.

    skypair
     
    #3 skypair, Feb 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2008
  4. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Pelagius did exist. He had a system of theology and that system is heretical.

    Hey Skypair. I know you disagree with Sproul. However, Sproul, while I disagree with him somewhat, is not a heretic. Let's not belittle the heresy of Pelagius and fail to see his danger just because we disagree with Sproul. Sproul's chapter on Pelagius is a recitation of documented history and, as far as I can tell, Sproul is correct in his retelling of the history and his interpretation of it.

    Pelagius was a heretic. Sproul says so. When the man is right let's be honest enough to say he is right.
     
    #4 swaimj, Feb 5, 2008
  5. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Huh? I pointed out some features of Pelagius that were worthy of consideration but, I don't know what you mean by me "dissing" Sproul here.

    skypair
     
    #5 skypair, Feb 5, 2008
  6. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Skypair, your summary above is not the essence of Pelagianism. Peelagianism denies that sin is passed on from Adam to the race in direct contradiction to Paul's teaching in Romans. Pelagius taught that men ARE NOT sinners by nature but are sinners because they sin.
     
    #6 swaimj, Feb 6, 2008
  7. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    I don't think I missed that, swaim. What is it about...

    4) Human nature is indestructibly good."
    5) Evil is an act we can avoid."
    11) Neither Adam's sin nor his guilt was transmitted." (True, Ezek 18:20)
    12) All men are created as Adam was before the fall."

    ..that you don't agree with?

    skypair
     
    #7 skypair, Feb 6, 2008
  8. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Skypair, you said
    I assumed you were agreeing with him when you put it this way. The truth is that sin and guilt ARE passed on from Adam.
     
    #8 swaimj, Feb 6, 2008
  9. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Skypair, I agree that these are Pelagious' positions but I do not agree with any of these statements.
     
    #9 swaimj, Feb 6, 2008
  10. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    withdrawn.........
     
    #10 Andy T., Feb 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2008
  11. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Please refer to my response to rippon above and answer Ezek 18:20, Rom 7:9, and John 9:2-3.

    Innate sin and sin guilt was "read into" the Bible to justify infant baptism. The places I have found so far are "allusions" to sin at birth whereas these I have mentioned are very clear.

    But present your case and I will study it.

    skypair
     
    #11 skypair, Feb 7, 2008
  12. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Skypair, I looked back to see your response to Rippon so that I can interact with it. Here is what you said:
    There is no explanation from you here. There is only a series of questions. Since I assume that your answers to your questions would be different from mine, but I am not sure what your answers would be, I have no way to interact with what you are saying. In short, you have not said anything. If you want to answer you own questions I will try to interact with them. Otherwise, I really don't know how to respond to arguments that you have not made.
     
    #12 swaimj, Feb 7, 2008
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    In this manner Pelagius is correct if this is what he taught (I have never read Pelagius). Guilt is not passed on from Adam, the sin nature and propensity to sin is. Paul does not teach the opposite, particularly when you read Romans 6 - 8. We don't sin because we are sinners. We sin because our nature's are corupt and we WILL sin...making us sinners. The very definition of sinner is "one who sins". A murderer does not murder because he's a murderer...he's deemed as such because he has committed murder.
     
    #13 webdog, Feb 7, 2008
  14. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Shouldn't be different. What does Ezek 18:20 say? Do you acknowledge what it says? Do you have something that says otherwise?

    skypair
     
    #14 skypair, Feb 7, 2008
  15. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Skypair, if you have a comment on the passage or an explanation that you want me to comment on, I will be glad to. Otherwise, the passage says what it says and since we are both Bible believers there should be no disagreement. If you can't say what you think on this board then there is really no reason for discussion.
     
    #15 swaimj, Feb 7, 2008
  16. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    OK, have it your way.

    Where do you find that we are born with sin guilt? "Born sinners?" I've heard some scriptures quoted but probably not all of them. God ahead. Make your point.

    skypair
     
    #16 skypair, Feb 7, 2008
  17. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    I don't have my Bible here at work, but David says in the Psalms, "...in sin did my mother conceive me."
     
    #17 swaimj, Feb 7, 2008
  18. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Well, when you get home, exegete the verse for me (Psa 51:5).

    See, I'm thinking right there that David is saying that from conception and birth he was destined for sin, particularly the sin he was just found himself guilty of! He is speaking poetically of human nature and the flesh and not of infant guilt.

    skypair
     
    #18 skypair, Feb 7, 2008
  19. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    He is speaking of being a sinner at conception which precedes birth. If he was a sinner at conception then he was a sinner when he became an infant, thus you have infant guilt.
     
    #19 swaimj, Feb 7, 2008
  20. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Wow! Didn't even NEED to go home and read your Bible.

    Do you dare try Ezek 18:20 at work?

    skypair
     
    #20 skypair, Feb 7, 2008
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