Jarthur001
Active Member
What does the Bible say about mans will? Just how much power does man have?
I made this statement in another thread..
And asked...
I made this statement in another thread..
And asked...
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Willpower...
- Thread starter Jarthur001
- Start date
Man only has the 'power' to do what God allows him to.
Example:
If God allows man to sin man can, by virture of God's allowance (and thus empowering/enabling), do just that - sin.
Man has or can do whatever God allows.
You bet! But it is up to God to decide 'how' He will choose (or has chosen) to so.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello Allan,
Before I was off to bed last night you had made a post. When I got up this morning, the post had changed. I see in your notes that it was to make it shorter. I liked the longer one better.
I don't disagree with what you said, but there were so many other paths we could have branched off into with your 1st answer. You may see now where I'm going with this, but because of your reply, I would like to talk about a few other subjects before we go there.
This has to do with sin, the subject that you used in your example. With the use of the word "allow" as you used, the leader is often seen as a passive ruler. Again I don't have a problem with saying that. But where many non-Calvinist get mad at me, is when I show the full impact of such a statement. When we look at this fully it is very passive-aggressive. This is when many jump and run saying your making "God the author of Sin", which of course is silly.
But I wanted to ask you if you can see how God can and does control man with sin, with out causing sin? This can be done in a passive mode. But even in passive mode, one can still control the out come.
Shoot, I do this even as I post on the board sometimes. I have seen you do the same. You don't force any one to write the words they will post in their reply, but when you ask a "setup" if you will, you know how they will reply before you ask. This later leads to your point. It was the persons own heart/thinking/doctrine that lead them to the words they used.
Again...this was not the main point I was heading to. I guess this fact only distorts part of my argument. But this is only because I am human and not God. In Gods case he knows the out come before 100% of the time and still he "allows" it.
Anyway...what do you think?
With regard to what you present and the way you presented it here I have no problem agreeing.Hello Allan,
Before I was off to bed last night you had made a post. When I got up this morning, the post had changed. I see in your notes that it was to make it shorter. I liked the longer one better.
I don't disagree with what you said, but there were so many other paths we could have branched off into with your 1st answer. You may see now where I'm going with this, but because of your reply, I would like to talk about a few other subjects before we go there.
This has to do with sin, the subject that you used in your example. With the use of the word "allow" as you used, the leader is often seen as a passive ruler. Again I don't have a problem with saying that. But where many non-Calvinist get mad at me, is when I show the full impact of such a statement. When we look at this fully it is very passive-aggressive. This is when many jump and run saying your making "God the author of Sin", which of course is silly.
But I wanted to ask you if you can see how God can and does control man with sin, with out causing sin? This can be done in a passive mode. But even in passive mode, one can still control the out come.
Shoot, I do this even as I post on the board sometimes. I have seen you do the same. You don't force any one to write the words they will post in their reply, but when you ask a "setup" if you will, you know how they will reply before you ask. This later leads to your point. It was the persons own heart/thinking/doctrine that lead them to the words they used.
Again...this was not the main point I was heading to. I guess this fact only distorts part of my argument. But this is only because I am human and not God. In Gods case he knows the out come before 100% of the time and still he "allows" it.
Anyway...what do you think?
I however do not agree (from my stand point) that God desires us to 'sin' though He will use our desire to sin in His plan to bring about His purposes. (Not that the below is your position but..)
The issue of 'God desiring us to sin' is where we find God authoring sin because He would be manipulating or commands/demands us 'to sin'.
We sin because we choose to, but we can only sin when God places before us a choice.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Yes, "desire us to sin" would be poor understanding(as I see it). But I think it can be worded in an active/effective way as well. As you said..."He will use our desire to sin in His plan to bring about His purposes."
I'll get back to this late tonight or tomorrow. I have a busy day today.
Peace...James
Jarthur001
Active Member
Ok....so God does have the power to bring about his will. Man has only the power God has given him. Lets look at love and how it plays into will power.
1st man.
If I have a desire to play basketball
If I also have the power to play basketball...(God given power)
If I have a love for the game of basketball....
WILL i play basketball?
1st man.
If I have a desire to play basketball
If I also have the power to play basketball...(God given power)
If I have a love for the game of basketball....
WILL i play basketball?
It depends on if he chooses to play or not.
Take me for example.
I have the desire to play basketball
I have the power to play basketball
I have a love for the game of basketball
Yet I choose not to play the game in spite of my desire, ability, and love for it.
I do so because I don't believe I would or will ever be any good at it
Thus my action is dependant upon what I choose to believe is truth.Jarthur001
Active Member
We can look at your answer in two ways.It depends on if he chooses to play or not.
Take me for example.
I have the desire to play basketball
I have the power to play basketball
I have a love for the game of basketball
Yet I choose not to play the game in spite of my desire, ability, and love for it.
I do so because I don't believe I would or will ever be any good at it
You have shown that love one can be divided into levels
Your greater love is not to play. All choices are based on what we view as our greater love at that moment. Right?
Your greater love is your limiting your fear of failure.
2nd...
If you have the God given ability, than you are good and therefore your reason given not to play is not real.
Not nessesarily, though I understand your meaning.
What must be remembered however is that love or even 'to love' something (even more or less than another) is a choice.
Not so. God given ability does not automatically equate to whether a person is good in a particular area, only that can play if they choose to believe they can and then their natural or God given abilities will manifest.2nd...
If you have the God given ability, than you are good and therefore your reason given not to play is not real.
And that is the key here. Just because a person has the God given ability (as in seeming to be born to do it) they will never they have this natural gifting until they choose to play.
What a bunch of pc, psychological, mumbo-jumbo the above is! If God gifts someone -- He gifts them -- period."If they choose to believe they can" is puerile foolishness.
Logic is not your strong suit. If someone is given an ability by God -- they have that gift -- full stop. Your lack of rational reasoning is evident with :"They will never have this natural gifting until they choose to play." However, you had just said that they were gifted by God with this ability. How can you in the next moment turn around and take that back by saying "they will never have this natural ability until they choose to play." Really man, think things out a bit and you'll see that your position is nonsensical.
What I stated, if taken in context, was simply that they will not manifest the gift. The aspect of them not having it refers to the usege/manifesting of that they have.
Let's look at scripture. :smilewinkgrin:
Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal (save) them.
Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Here we find people who "successfully" resist the "will of God", to their own hurt of course.
And on the other side of the coin, we find people who have been saved, and "successfully" resist the "will of God" by backslidding.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Mt 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Lu 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Man has the freedom of his will to obey/disobey God.
While I may agree with you that man can choose via God's allowance, I do not agree with you as to the above.
How so???
I don't think either group, the one who resisted being saved and those who backslid, did so as the "will of God", but their "own will".