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Without exception, or without distinction?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by aa0310, Apr 28, 2003.

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  1. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    Did the Lord Jesus Christ die for all mankind, "without exception", or "without distinction"? Did He taste death for the "whole human race", or only for the so-called "elect of God" only? If, as the Calvinist says, that Jesus only died for "the elect", then why would God command all men everywhere to repent? (Acts 17:30). Or, how could Christ be called the "propitiation...for the whole world"? (John 2:2), Or, how could Peter in his second epistle say that Jesus, by His death "bought" the "false prophet and false teacher" (2:1). It is a clear fact that the doctrine which passes as "Limited Atonement" is NOT taught anywhere in Scripture, but a cunning deception of the enemy. And. if this heresy was introduced by someone like the Jehovah's Witnesses, it would have been damned a long time ago! Its only because a group of "Baptists" hold to this evil doctrine, that some of us put up with it. However, I am convinced that this teaching is an abomination to a Holy God, as it clearly insults the completed work of His Son, the Lord Jesus, by limiting its provision to only one group of people. Surely the atonement has been made for the human race, and it is up to each one to either accept or reject it. This, I believe, is what Jesus taught in John 3:16-18,35-36!

    In His service

    Andrew
     
    #1 aa0310, Apr 28, 2003
  2. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    aa0310, your points are valid. I agree with you that the atonement covers ALL mankind, the sins of the whole world, and is not limited in any manner whatsoever.

    What do you say is the ultimate purpose of atonement?
     
    #2 Yelsew, Apr 28, 2003
  3. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Andrew... Are we really singling anyone out?... The scripture also say that the gift and calling of God are without repentance... Can you repent of the sin nature that you are born with?... Can you turn away from sin and embrace the eternal without help from the eternal God?

    What makes a man seek repentance?... Can he find it on his own or must a broken and contrite heart that brings him to his knees... Bring him also to his repentence?... John The Baptist knew that those seeking baptism to cover all the bases so to speak... Did not have the kind of repentence needed for baptism... They didn't come that way but their own way!

    Sorry disagree with both you brethren... The way I understand biblical doctrine... Limited Atonement is only for Gods children the Elect and does not apply to everybody... That is the way I see it and stand on that truth... You disagree fine... Like I say to each his own... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
    #3 tyndale1946, Apr 28, 2003
  4. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    Hi Yelsew

    I am glad to see another who has not fallen into the hersey of "limited atonement".

    You mention "the ultimate purpose of atonement". This, I believe, is the work done by the Lord Jesus, whereby He could make it possible by His death on the cross, to reconcile the believing sinner, to a pre-fall relationship with God. As you are no doubt aware, that without the shedding of innocent blood, that would not be possible. Therefore, this could only be accomplished by one who is at one both 100% God and man, as the Lord Jesus is. We read in Paul's first epistle to Timothy, that, "this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will (desires) have all men (which can ONLY refer to mankind - so the Greek has it) to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2:3-4 context). I also read in Romans chapter 3, that God has "set forth" (Greek "offered) Jesus as a propitiation through faith in His blood...that He might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus (25-26). This tells me that God has made it possible for anyone to come to Him through the death of Jesus, if only they would put their complete faith and trust in HIS finished work. This, however, cannot be done without the working in the sinners heart by God the Holy Spirit, when He calls the sinner to repentance
     
    #4 aa0310, Apr 28, 2003
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Here is two interesting comparisons... You say unlimited atonement... We Primitive Baptist believe in limited atonement!

    Unlimited Atonement... It's in your hands
    Limited Atonement... It's in Gods hands!

    Take your pick I know where my eternal salvation is and it is not by me!... Without exception and without distinction!... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
    #5 tyndale1946, Apr 28, 2003
  6. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    Hi tyndale1946

    You say that you understand biblical doctrine on this subject to support a limited atonement? Where, I ask, in the New Testament is this doctrine taught? If anyone were to honestly examine the so-called texts that support this view, they can only conclude that it is an error. I never said that a person can turn to Christ on their on, as this would be very foolish. I agree that we all need the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts before we can call on the Name of Jesus to save us. But this does NOT mean as some Calvinists hold, that a person is "made alive" BEFORE they are saved! This is complete nonsense, as it would mean that a person was born-again BEFORE he was able to call upon the Name of the Lord. If, as you say the death of Jesus is only for the elect, then why does the Bible say that people are "damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess. 2:12) NOTE, it clearly says that they are damned because the rejected the truth (Salvation, Jesus Christ, the Holy Bible, etc), and NOT because Jesus did not provide atonement for them. Surely the basis of damnation for a soul, is because they reject God's only provision for Salvation in Jesus Christ, and not because the sinner has not been atoned for in Christs' death! It is like a person who has, lets say, AIDS, and a cure had been found for it, it is ONLY when the person with AIDS takes the treatment, will they be cured. Tne cure is there, by MUST be received! Likewise with the atonement, Jesus has made the provision for anyone to be saved, but the sinner first must come to Him in believing faith and true repentance for him to be saved!
     
    #6 aa0310, Apr 28, 2003
  7. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    Hi tyndale1946

    It appears from your last post, that you do not understand the doctrine of the atonement. For you to say, that by believing unlimited atonement "It's in your hands", and thereby meaning that it is our own work, clearly shows your lack of understanding of this important doctrine! We are here discussing the EXTENT of the atonement, and NOT the CAUSE. I am fully aware that it is Christ Who died for one and all, and that we cannot save ourselves, as it is He who made the provision by His OWN blood. But, to assume that the teaching of a "limited atonement" is biblical, is to believe that the Holy Word of God teaches error! It is even a FACT, that John Calvin himself NEVER taught a "limited atonement", in fact his writings, especially his commentary on Romans, clearly teaches that Christ dies for "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION"!!! Lets get our facts right!
     
    #7 aa0310, Apr 28, 2003
  8. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    What are you saying? The gift and calling of God are without repentance... I believe that God will not repent from his gift and calling too, is that what you mean here?

    No, you cannot repent from the sin nature, but you can repent from obeying that nature. Because He who is in you is stronger than he who is in the world, you can with great authority refuse to sin!

    The will of man must be broken before the will of God can take over. Can man break his own will? Not without substantial divine influence, because we (man) like to sin. But can the unsaved we's of this world, without divine intervention, find ourselves at a point of total dispair and cry out for divine help?

    Is judgement for all? That is, will all mankind be judged for his works? Will all mankind be judged for their faith? Is God's Throne of judgement just a figment of John's imagination?
    Atonement is not in man's hands in either case. Atonement is what God did from the foundation of the world, for the sins of the world, the whole world. Remember, Jesus is called the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus was slain in atonement for all sins. Man has no say so whatever regarding atonement. Man cannot limit atonement, God does not limit atonement!

    [ April 28, 2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
    #8 Yelsew, Apr 28, 2003
  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    First of all I have been a Primitive Baptist all my life... We are of the Calvinist belief but do not embrace all point of Calvinism the way Calvinist do. Our interpretation of TULIP is somewhat different and I will not go into it here.

    I will let Brother Dallas explain your position as he comes from the Missionary Baptist but I do know that your acceptance of your salvation is the key... Primitive Baptist love Christ because he first loved us... Even when we were yet in our sins!

    Take the word election out of the bible and I will go along with unlimited atonement... But you can't because it is there and put there for a reason... God will save ALL his people... Who he chose before the foundation of the world was laid... His people... His choice... His election... They do not choose themselves by anything they had done to merit it... They were chosen before they had done any good or evil!

    Those who want to disagree can but you know where I stand... Other are free to state where they stand... Then again we can say that God elected the spiritual man and not the sinful man... Hummmm!... Had you going there for a minute didn't I :D ... Sounded a little like Billism... No offence Brother Bill :D ... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
    #9 tyndale1946, Apr 28, 2003
  10. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    I believe in "election", but NOT in the sense that God has before the foundation of the world determined whom He will save, regardless of what the individual may say! Of course, the Calvinist would have us believe that we are mere machines, who are controlled by God, and who have no free will, and therefore no responsibility! Tell me this, if this "election" were indeed true, then on what basis can God send the non-elect to hell? If is is because they have not believed, then this is not possible, seeing that God has placed an barrier in their way, by not electing them. It also begs the question on the need to witness with the gospel. If God has already "elected" His complete number before the foundation of the world, then saved they shall be! What need is there for anyone to hear the gospel, for it can surely make not one once of difference! This whole system of Calvinism causes more problems than it actually solves! By making a choice for God has nothing to do with self merit, but rather with being grateful that God has made Salvation possible through the gospel. Why did Jesus say "Ye search the Scriptures, for in then te think that you have eternal life; and they are they which testify of me. And YOU ARE UNWILLING TO COME (so the Greek), in order that you might have (eternal) life" (John 5:39-40). They were UNWILLING, Jesus never said that they COULD NOT will!
     
    #10 aa0310, Apr 28, 2003
  11. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Friend, Christ said we are to be judged by our words, now, in view of all else that you wrote, do you believe the above statement? If so, then why would you think that those who believe in Sovereign Grace are limiting anything? We put all into God's hands and even the vilest sinner is washed cleaned; this has nothing to do with whether he {the sinner} accepts the work or not. How can he, being lost and groping for the wall like the Blind in the noon day sun accept anything? You do err, not knowing scripture, nor the power of God.

    IMHO.

    Further, as far as Calvin teaching this or teaching that, Calvin also aligned his 'church' with the state in order to seek a refuge from the onslaught of the Catholic tide that would have stomped him out;{it was not until the Peace of Westphalia that Calvinism was accepted by man as a true doctrine} the doctrine of the 'Baptist' never sought a refuge save in Christ the Son of God, did this cost him anything as some estimate that man must count a cost, yes!!, but by immeasureable Grace he continued in his belief and even managed to grow the church, was this by the intellectual power of the mind of man? was that guard who professed his belief and joined the condemned in the flames willing to do so because his power of reasoning taught him he preferred death to continuance in this present world? How does your rationality explain this? Is this what you and I call counting the "cost" to 'beleif' in the Truth, or is this knowing the truth and acceptance of the cost because the Power of the Spirit that is in us? Doctrine such as yours spread nothing but doubt and disputation. Preach the Gospel, Proclaim the truth in love when enabled, by Grace always, in humility knowing first the power of He who is able to silence your mouth yet raise up others to continue.

    If Calvin refused to teach a 'limited' atonement then that is Calvin's error. We have a particularly amusing scenario occurring in our churches today which proclaims 'I am a 5 point calvinist' [and you can be sure I have said this, thus I am guilty and judged by my own words as well], or I am a four-pointer; or I am Arminian, I take 3 points, 2, or none, God cares not for what we take to be His truth, what we take, what we receive, what we accept does not make the doctrine of God any less true, nor does it influence Him to waiver in His position.

    It is error to think that a fallen creature such as we are able to choose Christ, thus validating His so-called 'finished' work that we 'believe' to atone for all men, when all men will most certainly not taste of its sweet savor. You and others would teach not a limited atonement, but care not to limit the Power of the Spirit of God. [​IMG]

    I am not sure I can understand this doctrine (perhaps my mind is irrational? :confused: )

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #11 Frogman, Apr 28, 2003
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Why would they be UNWILLING? If they can understand their need apart from the regeneration of the Spirit? I can easily see how your system is less confusing, only if one refuses to trust God is he able to trust God. That is what I see in your 'free-willism' no more.
     
    #12 Frogman, Apr 28, 2003
  13. romanbear

    romanbear New Member

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    Hi aa0310; [​IMG]
    You're not alone here I also agree with what you have said so far. Good post, got any more.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
    #13 romanbear, Apr 28, 2003
  14. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    You refer to my words "as it clearly insults the completed work of His Son, the Lord Jesus", and ask if I believed in this statement. Well, if I did not believe in it, I would not have written it! To place any "limit" on the work of Jesus (His death), especially when it is not founded on Scripture, is an insult to God! For who gave any man the right to tell God who He can and cannot save? This is exactly what "limited atonement" does! The Bible clearly states that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners..." If it was only the elect that He came to save, then they alone must be included in the use of "sinners" here. What then? Does it follow that the non-elact are NOT sinners??? Or, does the apostle Paul here refer by "sinners" to the sum total of mankind? Only someone who cannot accept this at face value (for what it actually is), will seek another meaning to the plain words.

    As the apostle Paul also says: "we can do NOTHING against the truth"!
     
    #14 aa0310, Apr 28, 2003
  15. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Do you really believe His work is completed? You speak as if you don't. How do you figure that the doctrine of limited atonement presumes to tell God anything about who He can save and cannot, this exhibits your lack of understanding of it IMHO.

    The doctrine of the election does not have within it a mark whereby we know them, though we are able to witness the fruit of the Spirit in their lives, or the lack thereof.

    How do you suppose scripture can proclaim that if a man does not feel the chastisement of God he is not a son, but a bastard?

    Your system does no more than dilute the Gospel so men will not be offended, it is this offense that is necessary to the destruction of the flesh.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #15 Frogman, Apr 28, 2003
  16. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    I take it that you Calvinists are the only ones who have a clear understanding of all they believe in, but can never proves their positions from the Word of God! The Scriptures that teach opposite to what they hold, are NEVER dealt with, are normally excused by the remark that "we cannot understand all things"! which is a cop out! How comes you guys cannot give an honest answer to texts like 1 Timothy 2:1-6, 4:10; Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2; 2 Peter 2:1; Revelation 22:17, to name just a few texts. Iam accused to "diluting" the gospel, but with no evidence when I did this. The Calvinist's assume that their system gives more glory to God, where it is no more than a system developed by men who lacked understanding of the important doctrines of the Grace of God, and thereby have put off many who would have otherwise have come to Christ. It is of interest to note history, that the Church for the first 300 years NEVER believed in a limited atonement, until Augustine came along with his unbiblical concept of the work of Jesus on the cross!
     
    #16 aa0310, Apr 28, 2003
  17. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    You have not been here long, those scripture have been dealt with sufficiently, if you want I will look up the urls so you can read how that Arminians danced around the flame and watched as their sparks ascended toward heaven. :D Just kidding, but the urls are here to provide a Biblical basis of those passages if you are really interested, but don't cry to me when you see how your Arminian brethren denied scripture while the 'calvinist' upheld the Sacred word.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #17 Frogman, Apr 28, 2003
  18. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Even according to C.H. Spurgeon, this is spiritually impossible to accomplish, how do you figure the Sovereignty of God turned His elect away?

    Bro.Dallas
     
    #18 Frogman, Apr 28, 2003
  19. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    My Arminian brethren may have had difficulties in answering the Calvinistic "proof" texts, but nonetheless I would like to see the URL's

    "Even according to C.H. Spurgeon, this is spiritually impossible to accomplish, how do you figure the Sovereignty of God turned His elect away?"

    By misrepresenting the plain plan of Salvation that God has in His Holy Word. I have already dealt with much of this above.
     
    #19 aa0310, Apr 28, 2003
  20. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    One who is repulsed by the free offer of Grace simply has no interest in it; he has no part in Christ. This is as plain as can be.

    Give some time to find those that I can, of those I cannot I will post on them. Is this satisfactory?

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #20 Frogman, Apr 28, 2003
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