Women In Authority

[mmetts]

http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=141

I've been under some duress lately, from a co-worker (female) who is using the passage of information in the link above, by an author Betty Miller, to explain how woman can be ministers in a Church.

She is very persistent, and I do respect her, but simply put she is wrong.

Here is Betty's personal message following the article which I found disturbing (the part in italics):

Personal Note from Betty:

My own personal call to the ministry came as a surprise to me. I was not expecting the Lord to use me because I did not realize God used women in the ministry. At the time of my call I was in the medical profession. I had been filled with the Holy Spirit and because of the tremendous transformation in my own life, I was eager to share with others this beautiful blessing. I had known the Lord since the age of twelve. However, I had not known Him in the power of the Holy Spirit. After my baptism in the Holy Spirit, I found I had a new holy boldness that I had not had before. I found myself witnessing and sharing with all who would listen. I wanted them to know of my new joy, love, peace and faith. I did not intend to pursue the path of becoming a female preacher. (I really did not know such existed). I just found myself sharing and preaching. Actually all of us who know Christ should be "preachers." Preaching is simply sharing the good news of Jesus Christ. The clergy should not be the ones who do all the preaching! This is the responsibility of every member of the body of Christ.

When the Lord spoke to me about His plan for my life, I immediately thought of many objections. My first was that I was a woman, so how could He use me? I told Him I didn't have the kind of tremendous testimony that would cause people to listen to me. He said, "Betty, it is not your testimony that will cause people to listen, but it will be My Spirit and My anointing." He then ministered to me in a beautiful way to show me in His Word that it was Scriptural for women to minister. Most of these truths are in this teaching. Our confusion over women ministering comes by misunderstanding the full counsel of God's Word. The verse with which this chapter begins is one of the first He revealed to me, "...there is neither male nor female..." in the Spirit. In heaven there will be no sex; so if we are walking in the Spirit now, we will not be conscious of sex, but only of the Spirit of God.

"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven" (Matthew 22:30).

My husband and I have been privileged to serve the Lord together as evangelists, pastors, teachers and now pioneering this new work on the Internet. It's rewarding to allow the Holy Spirit to minister through us as He sees fit. We only want to be those vessels who stand ready for the Master's use. The Lord uses Bud to relate to many that I could not reach, and He uses me to minister to others that he could not reach. Together we are able to accomplish much more for the Lord than we would if we were ministering by ourselves. We are grateful that the Lord called us into His service together.

God bless you! Betty

Here was some of my email correspondence to my office friend,

There's no inference of the women of the congregation in this passage, 1st Tim. 2:11-13. It simply says that, "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve." Some women will be called to the ministry. That's not what I'm arguing. Women can be in the ministry and not in leadership authority at the same time. But the Bible is clear. A woman cannot have authority over a man. The epistles of Timothy are known as the "Pastoral Epistles" because that's where Christians get so much of their doctrines for the Church and pastoring. I cannot see how an individual can say that it is ok. God's Word says so simply, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man". No matter how hard Betty Miller or other women profess it is ok, or Christ changed that, this fact remains: God did not say it was ok. He said it was not ok, quite clearly, in 1st Tim. 2:12. That does not mean that women can't be in ministry, or can't be in a leading role. It simply means they cannot have authority over a man.
Further, how can a woman be a minister? She can only minister to women, not to men. "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man" is clear that women pastors would not be effective since men are not under their authority - they would only preach to half the congregation! Now, with a man pastor, the whole congregation is under his authority. Women, I guess, can pastor all they want (if that's what they choose), but no woman pastor is in a place of authority over me, since I am a man. Further, I've yet to see a women pastor that I would consider able to even teach men, with the possible exception of Beth Moore. I see you have your beliefs and I have mine, and that's ok. I'm not trying to force my views on you. But the Word of God is very clear on this, and I believe this misconception is common in the Pentecostal progressive movement of today's church.

Thoughts???:1_grouphug:

 

[mmetts]

Further, I've heard a lot about this teaching, which is included in the passage by Betty Miller:

When Eve ate the forbidden fruit and enticed Adam to sin with her, one of the consequences for women was the loss of equality with men, as men were to rule over women, instead of men and women ruling together. She would now be "ruled by her husband." However, when Jesus came as sinless Man and died as the Messiah on the cross for us, all things were restored positionally. In actuality, the restoration of man (men and women) began to take place at that very moment.

Does anyone else feel like this is wrong?

Betty Miller also explains how 1st Timothy 2:12 is wrong (rather poorly):

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians 14:34).

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

In these verses, Paul cannot be addressing women who were in the ministry, but rather those in the congregation who were out of order. How do we know this? We have many such proofs, many from Paul himself. Here is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

This is all that she offers in regard to the verse, so this is her entire context. I am greatly interested in a scriptural, Baptist, POV on this whole doctrine.

 

[Mr.M]

Why are you under duress because of her erring opinion. She is wrong. Okay, so what is new? Many people are wrong on many occasions, does it always give you this much duress? It shouldn't. I am not trying to speak down to you, by the way, just frankly because sometimes that works better than someone agreeing with you and then telling you to go back in there and fight. Don't.

She has her opinion, you have yours, she isn't budging, neither are you. It obviously does not pertain to work, so stop already. You are hitting your head on a brick wall. Simply state your opinion and why and if she isn't interested in the truth then fine, she is not open to being taught.

It is clear the couple have gone to great lengths to construct a rationalization for what is clearly forbidden in Scripture. You aren't going to get her to come around and say, "Oh okay, I see, you're right, I am wrong, I will now abandon every thing I have based my life on so far". It happens but so rarely that you are lucky to meet one in a lifetime that has done that regarding something in their Christian life. You have spoken, she has been given the truth, she probably already KNEW the truth but her interests are not the Lord's and His truth but some man-made ministry based on self-deception...do really think you are going to get somewhere with her?

Time to leave it be. If she brings it up again she obviously is free to speak, you can't control her tongue but you can take away her weapon for arguing which is your tongue and not use it other than to say, "Betty, we've discussed this and you know I don't agree with you. I would be glad to talk about something else but not that, okay?" And then change the topic to something you both agree upon. Or learn to listen without having to always demonstrate whether you agree or not, just listen.

P.S. I went back and edited this post after posting it and coming back a few minutes later and reading it. Sheesh, I ought to edit more often, it was awful.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I think the easiest answer is that the Bible gives specific requirements for what type of man is to be considered qualified to pastor (different than preaching) but there are no equivalent qualifications given for women to do the same job (of pastoring). You can't build a doctrine from no scripture.

I actually agree that the Corinthians scriptures refer to worship services, but that doesn't mean that women should be pastoring.

Women have their own role in the church and that is to serve/teach other women. This I believe is borne out by consideration of more that just a few specific scriptures listed.

Btw, the word usurp means more than just to be over a man. This is encarta's definition:

seize something without right: to use something without the right to do so

As you can see the word usurp indicates something more than just a woman teaching or preaching, but taking authority where authority already exists.

LOL, I think Mr. M has a better solution for you!

 

[tinytim]

Why are you under duress because of her erring opinion. She is wrong, okay, so what is new, many people are wrong on many occasions, does it always give you this much duress? It shouldn't. I am not trying to speak down to you, by the way, just frankly because sometimes that works better than someone agree with you and then telling you to go back in there and fight. Don't.

She has her opinion, you have yours, she isn't budging, neither are you. It obviously does not pertain to work, so stop already. You are hitting your head on a brick wall. Simply state your opinion and why and if she isn't interested in the truth then fine, she is open to being taught.

It is clear the couple have gone to great lengths to construct a rationalization for what is clever forbidden in Scripture. You aren't going to get her to come around and say, "Oh okay, I see, you're right, I am wrong, I will now abandon every thing I have based my life on so far". It happens but so rarely that you are lucky to meet one in a lifetime that has done that regarding something in their Christian life. You have spoken, she has been given the truth, she probably already KNEW the truth but her interests are not the Lord's and His truth but some man-made ministry based on self-deception...are you really think you are going to get somewhere with her?

Time to leave it be. If she brings it up again she obviously is free to speak, you can't control her tongue but you can take away her weapon for arguing which is your tongue and not use it other that to say, "Betty, we've discussed this and you know I don't agree with I would be glad to talk about something else but not that, okay?" And then change the topic to something you both agree upon. Or learn to listen without having to always demonstrate whether you agree or not, just listen.

Agree here too..
Just tell her you don't agree and let it go...

The strongest people are the silent ones!

 

[J.D.]

When the Lord spoke to me about His plan for my life

When people think that any notion that enters their head is the Lord speaking to them, you have no chance against them. Who are you to argue with God?

Pray for her and plant seeds of truth as you have opportunity.

 

[Bro. Williams]

The strongest people are the silent ones!

This is also proven true with something else...

 

[Dale-c]

Women have their own role in the church and that is to serve/teach other women. This I believe is borne out by consideration of more that just a few specific scriptures listed.

I agree and I would add that a strong argument could be made that there is no direct authority of the pastor over the women in the church.
Since the women in the church are subject only to their own husbands, a pastor who tries to exercise any authority directly over another mans wife is just such a usurper.

 

[Dale-c]

As far as the original post, I am not going to tell you what to do either way.
If she brings it up, you are certainly free to defend the Biblical position with her.
If she leaves it alone, I don't see any obligation you have to bring it up to her, but I would not fault you if you did.

So, it is really a case of what is wise, not really a black and white right and wrong( the methods, not the issue of course)

 

[mmetts]

When people think that any notion that enters their head is the Lord speaking to them, you have no chance against them. Who are you to argue with God?

Pray for her and plant seeds of truth as you have opportunity.

I'll pray. Thanks for all the kind words everyone.

 

[mmetts]

I did want to clarify also, that Betty Miller is not my friend, she is the Pastor/Minister that wrote the article that my co-worker friend is refering too.

 

[trainbrainmommy]

I did want to clarify also, that Betty Miller is not my friend, she is the Pastor/Minister that wrote the article that my co-worker friend is refering too.

I always refer to the verses that require that a (married) pastor be the husband of one wife. Kinda hard for a woman to fill that blank. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[mmetts]

I always refer to the verses that require that a (married) pastor be the husband of one wife. Kinda hard for a woman to fill that blank. :smilewinkgrin:

Most certainly agreed! I was reading an article this morning in the SBTC's Southern Baptist Texan, and it was talking about women in ministry for other roles of leadership. Does the Word prohibit women just from being pastors or does it prohibit all positions of authority over a man? Of course I plan to study the Bible for myself to find out, but I'm still working my way through Grudem's Systematic Theology and daily OT readings.

When my wife and I got married we had a wonderful counselor, and now good friend of ours (we even call her Mom sometimes), help us to the day of our vows. However, I had strong personal convictions about a woman ministering our wedding ceremony. We brought in a good pastor for this, but still had our marriage counselor/minister help him.

 

[npetreley]

Most certainly agreed! I was reading an article this morning in the SBTC's Southern Baptist Texan, and it was talking about women in ministry for other roles of leadership. Does the Word prohibit women just from being pastors or does it prohibit all positions of authority over a man? Of course I plan to study the Bible for myself to find out, but I'm still working my way through Grudem's Systematic Theology and daily OT readings.

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

You still won't see people agree on what this means.

 

[Analgesic]

Most certainly agreed! I was reading an article this morning in the SBTC's Southern Baptist Texan, and it was talking about women in ministry for other roles of leadership. Does the Word prohibit women just from being pastors or does it prohibit all positions of authority over a man? Of course I plan to study the Bible for myself to find out, but I'm still working my way through Grudem's Systematic Theology and daily OT readings.

If you enjoy Grudem, you absolutely must pickup his Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth. While I disagree with some of his conclusions, the book is a superb introduction to any thorough Biblical study.

 

[Jimmy C]

There is an excellent post by Emily Hunter McGowin over on SBC Outpost dealing with the greek word authority - the comment stream is up over 100 - as expected there are a few different opinions, but the debate is very respectful

I have attached the link

http://sbcoutpost.com/who-should-“have-authority-over-a-man”/

My personal belief is that women as senior pastors are not for me, beyond that I have had great women sunday school teachers, youth ministers (for both boys and girls, education ministers etc

 

[mmetts]

If you enjoy Grudem, you absolutely must pickup his Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth. While I disagree with some of his conclusions, the book is a superb introduction to any thorough Biblical study.

Thank you for the book. I do enjoy Grudem, he is safe. Sounds like it would be a great read. I'll put it on the to do list.

 

[mmetts]

One conviction I do have on the issue is Ephesians 5. The male/female relationship is a representation of Christ and the Church.

 

[go2church]

I agree with Betty and think you are the one who is wrong. But I don't have any duress about it move on there are bigger fish to fry.

 

[mmetts]

I agree with Betty and think you are the one who is wrong. But I don't have any duress about it move on there are bigger fish to fry.

Go2Church, I applaude - :applause: - your healthy and courageous effort to be included in the ongoing intellectual work of this thread. Can you explain why you agree with Betty Miller's opinion on "Women in Authority"? Otherwise, I might tend to think you just came here to be rude, which I'm sure you didn't.