Word of Faith and 'Name it Claim it'

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eric: The immediate context of this is Christ's withering of the fig tree, and then His statement about moving mountains. If one doesn't think that these passages are often being removed from their original contexts today, then what about the fact that we cannot today perform such supernatural acts at will? This is of course, blamed on our "unbelief", meaning it's because nobody believes that they can actually do it, hence, this is what prevents such feats. (James 1:6 "ask in faith, nothing wavering" is cited, but it's context is "wisdom", v.5!) But then everyone must be "unbelieving" today, then, since no one 'has enough faith' to actually move a mountain or wither a tree with words!

HP: You give us much to consider here. I need to read carefully each passage mentioned and see if in fact a specific context is implied.

Eric; In verse 21 He says "all of you", meaning the disciples. This was not necessarily meant to be projected to every Christian who ever lives afterwards (and neither is 2 Timothy 3:12, because every single godly Christian has not suffered perseution for Christ). We have all applied many things to ourselves that were apparently not meant for us.
HP: And certainly not ‘necessarily’ applied to us as many would have us believe.

Eric; This is proven by the fact that the WoF is able to use the passages, which seems to point to their belief. So both groups, projecting these passages onto us today, have to take one of two paths to get around the problem: just hold up other scriptures to contradict what these say (i.e. that Christians all must suffer) and then spiritualize the meaning of the "miracles" (i.e. "victory" over bad attitudes or emotions in that suffering); or to rely on hoaxes and claims that others do not have faith, in order to claim that those miracles are in fact being performed by them.

HP: Am I reading you correctly in beleiving that you might have an alternate alternative?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mr 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

HP: Here is some fodder for the list.
Jesus prayed, Not my will be done, but Thine oh Lord!”, did he not?

It would seem to me that if we are to pray or ask something 'in Jesus name,' it must be in accordance to the will of Jesus. The focus of Christ’s prayers were not selfish or self-indulging, but rather the focus of the will of Christ was always the focus of God’s will and that God may be glorified and that God’s will be done.

If we are to ask of God something not according to the will of Christ, which again was in accordance to the will of God, would not such a request be nothing short of pure selfishness? Even in this case IF God were to answer such a selfish request, why would we think that it would result in anything other than the leanness to our souls Scripture states the Israelites received as a reward of their requests? Ps 106:15 And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.

Are we to assume, as some (outside of those of this list) have implied, that leanness to our souls is not possible due to the fact we have been born again? Is not Scripture replete with warnings of drifting away from our first love and being entrapped by the spirit of this world, through the deceitfulness of sin, and drawn away from God via our selfish lusts?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The Word of Faith movement is not a Biblical movement.
Faith needs an object--always.
The object of our faith, for Biblical Christianity, must be Christ.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

HP: I have yet a new appreciation for you. This simple post has helped me gain insight into the WOF error that I have never really considered much before, having never been a part of that group and have never felt a need to sit under any of their teachers. My spirit told me there was error, but error is subtle at times and takes careful consideration, the help of fellow believers and prayer to uncover the basis for it. God has indeed used you and your insight to help steer my thoughts to the truth of the error. Through we obviously disagree on some things, I still need your spiritual insight. I consider our walk together here on this list as very beneficial to truth.

Thank you for your shown toleration of fellow believers even at the expense of disagreement on some issues and for the hard work and many hours this undertaking costs you. May God richly bless you and your family.

The same can be said of many of the others on this list as well. I sincerely appreciate the time, the spirit, and the insight so many exhibit on a daily basis to make this list enjoyable and enlightening. Each one has encouraged my heart and mind to consider carefully manu issues we face within the church. May we all continue to be as the Bereans, and provoke one another to sound doctrine which will produce good works and glorify our Father which is in heaven.

 

[Eric B]

HP: Am I reading you correctly in beleiving that you might have an alternate alternative?

Yes. And that alternative is what I have been saying. It obviously does not fit us today, whether claiming we should be able to do those miracles today, or trying to counter that we are supposed to suffer, so if it is true at all, it must have been something given to them in Jesus time (the original apostles) only.

It would seem to me that if we are to pray or ask something 'in Jesus name,' it must be in accordance to the will of Jesus. The focus of Christ’s prayers were not selfish or self-indulging, but rather the focus of the will of Christ was always the focus of God’s will and that God may be glorified and that God’s will be done.

If we are to ask of God something not according to the will of Christ, which again was in accordance to the will of God, would not such a request be nothing short of pure selfishness? Even in this case IF God were to answer such a selfish request, why would we think that it would result in anything other than the leanness to our souls Scripture states the Israelites received as a reward of their requests?

Then, that's another theory. God will never grant a request to move a mountain or wither a plant because we do not have any reason to move it, and it would only be for a show (selfish reason). But if that were true, there would be someone who had a good reason to do something like that, and it would be granted. Basically, since in any given case, we would conclude that it is just not God's will for the person to do it, and we don't see anybody doing it, we might as well realize that it is not God's will for anyone today, and was thus only for the apostles.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eric: God will never grant a request to move a mountain or wither a plant because we do not have any reason to move it, and it would only be for a show (selfish reason). But if that were true, there would be someone who had a good reason to do something like that, and it would be granted. Basically, since in any given case, we would conclude that it is just not God's will for the person to do it, and we don't see anybody doing it, we might as well realize that it is not God's will for anyone today, and was thus only for the apostles.

HP: How do we know for certain what God might do or request us to do in the future? There was a time for hundreds of years that it may have seemed as if though God was done speaking to the human race, then along came the Messiah!

Just because many of the true gifts may not seem to be operational at this moment, and we fail to see them operational as they once were, does not negate the possibility that they will not be clearly utilized and evident in the future. One thing is for certain, we as believers will have to be very discerning as we go into the last days for as we are warned, the devil himself will also be manifesting unusual powers at that time as well.

 

[Eric B]

Well, if it happens again in the future, it happens. For now, it seems to be another silent perion. Yet you can already find plenty of pretenders today (who are unwittingly working for the Devil).