"Works Religion"

[Claudia_T]

I dont see how we have to so-called use different Bible passages in context with one another as if one nulls out the other.

If Jesus plainly said that He is going to part the sheep from the goats and the sheep will be those who see those in need and help them but the goats will not. And the goats will be sent to hell. How much more do we need? That doesnt say well if the sheep believe in Jesus then they dont have to worry they will be saved regardless of how they act.

 

[Dustin]

If the Bible says that faith without works is DEAD then how can we be saved without any faith? Thats why James asked "can your faith save you?" and the answer is NO, obviously. I dont see why that is so difficult for people to grasp.

James was referring those who said they had faith, but weren't doing anything. Then he says this, "Show me your faith without works", you can't see faith, unless it is acted out. A living faith. A faith that works. The book of James is the "put your money where your mouth is" book. "Justify your justification." thats what James is saying.

Sometimes I don't see how some people use this to try to refute sola fide. It's not different from anything Paul wrote, they go hand in hand. James is a very practical book, Paul had plenty of practical material in his epistles too. James is spurring people on in his epistle, he's saying "Use all this faith you say you have, if you have it."

Paul repeatedly did the same thing. They just don't cantradict each other at all. James' epistle doesn't contradict sola fide or sola gratia or election or predestination. Some people just can't understand that. Even Martin Luther called James "an epistle of straw." He did so because the RCC used this book to justify thier "faith alone can't justify" doctrine. Faith alone in Christ alone DOES justify sinners, and those justified sinners, if they've been given the gift of faith, won't just sit on it.

Simply as I can sum it up: James isn't telling people to work thier way to heaven, he's telling people that if they really have faith, they'd be doing something with it. It's an exhortation to be active, not a contradiction of other biblical doctrine.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[EdSutton]

Mr. Chemnitz ...............................You are right on the money.

How do you get Saved? Eph 2:8, 9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How are we Kept Saved? 1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What happens to us if we sin "after" we are Saved? 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we sin and die before we get a chance to repent, will we still go to Heaven? Rom 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Much better, Shiloh. Correct without 'shouting'. And I agree 100% with this!
>
>
>
Unless the works don't match up to what I think they should be. - Oh wait! That last sentence is someone else, not me. I just posted it to help them out, and save them some time! :tongue3: :laugh: :thumbsup:

Ed

 

[Dustin]

I dont see how we have to so-called use different Bible passages in context with one another as if one nulls out the other.

If Jesus plainly said that He is going to part the sheep from the goats and the sheep will be those who see those in need and help them but the goats will not. And the goats will be sent to hell. How much more do we need? That doesnt say well if the sheep believe in Jesus then they dont have to worry they will be saved regardless of how they act.

Who says that Claudia?

 

[EdSutton]

Who says that Claudia?

How about maybe Claudia? I'm no longer! :thumbsup:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

If the Bible says that faith without works is DEAD then how can we be saved without any faith? Thats why James asked "can your faith save you?" and the answer is NO, obviously. I dont see why that is so difficult for people to grasp.

J.Jump has answered this before, I have answered this before, and others have, as well.

Let me ask three of my own questions.

Why is it so hard to understand Eph. 2:8-10, John 6:47, or Romans 4:1-10 for some?

Why is it so hard to see the difference between salvation and discipleship?

Why is that so difficult for people to grasp?

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: Why is it so hard to see the difference between salvation and discipleship?

HP: Sorry Ed. I missed any explanation of that distinction. Would you be so kind to explain it to me?

 

[Claudia_T]

J.Jump has answered this before, I have answered this before, and others have, as well.

Let me ask three of my own questions.

Why is it so hard to understand Eph. 2:8-10, John 6:47, or Romans 4:1-10 for some?

Why is it so hard to see the difference between salvation and discipleship?

Why is that so difficult for people to grasp?

Ed

Ephesians 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Ed, YES we are saved through faith, which is the gift of God. I got that!

What kind of faith would you imagine God would give you? DEAD FAITH??

and if you HAVE DEAD FAITH with no works, what do you think this means??

did you get that from God??


and whats more then, if you are created in Christ Jesus unto good works and you are His workmanship... well what happened? if your good works are missing? nothing???

 

[EdSutton]

[Double.
Ed

 

[EdSutton]

HP: Sorry Ed. I missed any explanation of that distinction. Would you be so kind to explain it to me?

althoough I don't have the time for a complete discourse, at this time, here is a starter: Post # 8 in - http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=936865#post936865

Ed

 

[Dustin]

How about maybe Claudia? I'm no longer! :thumbsup:

Ed

Ha, why do I even bother?

 

[J. Jump]

Claudia I really hope you will consider studying through some of the material that I PMed you regarding. But just to answer your latest question in regard to James . . .

What you have is the word faith used. So what most of Christendom says is well if the word faith is used then it must be talking about eternal (spiritual) saving faith.

The same thing goes for the word saved. When most of Christendom sees the word "saved" they automatically assume that the passage in question is speaking of eternal (spiritual) salvation.

Unfortunately that will get one into all sorts of problems. While the word faith is used in James and the word saved/save is used in James the context of James is not eternal (spiritual) salvation. He is addressing a group of "saved" individuals. So he is addressing something other than eternal (spiritual) salvation. Those folks already had that and were not in need of further teaching on that matter. He is speaking of a faith that works in regard to something that is after eternal (spiritual) salvation.

When we compare Scripture with Scripture one does not nullify the other, but harmonizes one with another. The only way that works can harmonize with Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31 and Romans 4 is that it is not speaking of eternal (spiritual) salvation.

If works enters into the picture of eternal (spiritual) salvation in ANY WAY shape or form front loaded, middle loaded or back loaded then we have just made a lie out of Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31 and Romans 4.

Unfortunately again what Christendom has done to "fit" James into a theological bent that is workable is they say James is talking about eternal (spiritual) salvation faith in that a "real" faith will be a faith that "works." And if you don't have a faith that "works" then you aren't really saved.

That' just backloaded works salvation.

Eternal (spiritual) salvation is not based on works. It's not concerned with works before, during or after. Eternal salvation is ONLY faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, done on behalf of the sinner. If faith is placed in that finished work and a person believes in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ they are saved. Period. End of dicussion, because that is where Scripture places the period and ends the discussion on eternal (spiritual) salvation.

Once the word "works" is even uttered out of someone's mouth the conversation has moved out of the realm of Spiritual salvation and into the realm of discipleship/stewardship.

Whether we like it or not or whether we agree with it or not there are going to be some folks that enter into eternity that were not fruit producers during this lifetime.

And again the problem is that Christendom thinks that we have this lifetime and then we step out into eternity. And so when we only see those two time frames then it is said well God isn't going to let non-fruit producers into heaven how can He? That would be allowing sinners into heaven.

What most of Christendom fails to realize is that there is a 1,000-year period that is between this lifetime and eternity. Where works comes into play is not for kingdom purposes not eternal purposes per se.

What has happened is that all of the warnings that are in Scripture they are real. You see them (alot of Christendom say those warnings are not for believers unfortunately), but in the past you have clearly shown that you see the warnings as warnings for believers.

And that is true. The mistake that is often made when those that see the warnings are for believers they think they have eternal ramfications, but they are kingdom ramifications.

Gotta cut it off there . . . my daughter just woke up crying I love being a dad!

 

[BobRyan]

Ephesians 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Ed, YES we are saved through faith, which is the gift of God. I got that!

What kind of faith would you imagine God would give you? DEAD FAITH??

Well said Claudia!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Ha, why do I even bother?

well you lost me on whatever it is you are trying to say so..

 

[Allan]

Ephesians 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Ed, YES we are saved through faith, which is the gift of God. I got that!

What kind of faith would you imagine God would give you? DEAD FAITH??

and if you HAVE DEAD FAITH with no works, what do you think this means??

did you get that from God??
Dead faith HAS no works.
and whats more then, if you are created in Christ Jesus unto good works and you are His workmanship... well what happened? if your good works are missing? nothing???

There is no such thing as a Dead faith with works! Please show me if there is.

Do you believe works help assure your salvation?

Salvation has always been and will always be about Faith NOT works. Works have always been the evedence of our salvation, period.
So if you beleive you can add to or be MORE saved via your works then by your own admission you deny Eph 2:8-9 as being a lie from the lips of God Himself.
Salvation is of Faith and NOT works. Period, end of story, case closed.

The legalistic Jews couldn't understand this either and give your same argument.

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The only work of God you need to do is believe. It is from this that Christ lives His life through you. (Gal 2:20) We live out the works God will do through us decalring His manifested presence in our lives and we WILL walk in them for we are His and love Him. James Expounds on it concerning the identifying marks of one who is saved. They are doing those things God has afore declared you to walk in. What is the purpose of this walk, salvation?? Absolutely NOT!

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Your works are to bring glory to the Father NOT bring to add to your salvation or make you more worthy of it.

But we notice that the Jews didn't understand this. Works is apart of salvation and makes you worthy of salvation according to them for they lived according to the Law and not according the Law of Faith.

Rom 3:27 ¶ Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Salvation is NOT conditional upon our work but the WORK of Christ that justifies.
Either What He did was suffienct or else He is not the Christ.

 

[Claudia_T]

There is no such thing as a Dead faith with works! Please show me if there is.

Do you believe works help assure your salvation?

Salvation has always been and will always be about Faith NOT works. Works have always been the evedence of our salvation, period.
So if you beleive you can add to or be MORE saved via your works then by your own admission you deny Eph 2:8-9 as being a lie from the lips of God Himself.
Salvation is of Faith and NOT works. Period, end of story, case closed.

The legalistic Jews couldn't understand this either and give your same argument.

The only work of God you need to do is believe. It is from this that Christ lives His life through you. (Gal 2:20) We live out the works God will do through us decalring His manifested presence in our lives and we WILL walk in them for we are His and love Him. James Expounds on it concerning the identifying marks of one who is saved. They are doing those things God has afore declared you to walk in. What is the purpose of this walk, salvation?? Absolutely NOT!

Your works are to bring glory to the Father NOT bring to add to your salvation or make you more worthy of it.

But we notice that the Jews didn't understand this. Works is apart of salvation and makes you worthy of salvation according to them for they lived according to the Law and not according the Law of Faith.

Salvation is NOT conditional upon our work but the WORK of Christ that justifies.
Either What He did was suffienct or else He is not the Christ.

Alan,

It seems that what you dont understand and what many others do not understand here as well, is the fact that ABSOLUTELY!!! your works cannot buy your salvation!!! a hundred times yes that is TRUE!!!


Rv:22:17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life FREELY.


But here is a secret... which harmonizes everything...

Rv:3:18: I counsel thee to BUY OF ME gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Now why would in one place it represent this as FREE then in another as something you must BUY???


wellllllllllllllllllllllllllll....

Remember the parable of the Pearl OF GREAT PRICE?


The parable has a double meaning. Jesus gave His all to redeem us and we must give our all to receive Him...
1Cor:6:20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

You cannot rely on your own efforts to serve God and do it to try to secure your own salvation, such service to God is absolutely useless! Your heart must be moved by a deep seated love for God.

If we realize how much Christ gave for us, how can we not desire, when contemplating His great sacrifice, to give our all for Him in return? What do we give up, when we give all? A sin-polluted heart, for Jesus to purify, to cleanse by His own blood, and to save by His matchless love.

We "Buy" from God by simply giving Him our hearts to cleanse and to purify from sin. We HAVE BEEN BOUGHT with a price! Our hearts no longer belong to us! If we think they do then we are under a huge deception.

Yes salvation IS FREE! We could never ever do anything to earn it. But if we REFUSE to GIVE GOD WHAT IS RIGHTFULLY HIS in return.... well FORGET IT!!!

...and that is the way that it is. Too bad so many just do not understand this concept.


SIMPLY PUT: IF we do not have good works we prove that we have no real genuine faith in Jesus Christ.

Let me tell you something. You, by giving your heart to Christ to cleanse and purify are NOT "earning your salvation" by doing that. YOU ARE GIVING TO CHRIST WHAT IS ALREADY HIS!!!!

it does not belong to you!

therefore it isnt as if you actually "bought" anything, and yes, salvation IS FREE!

But the man in the parable of the Pearl of GREAT PRICE, well he WAS WILLING TO GIVE UP EVERYTHING in order to secure that Pearl!

Claudia

 

[Allan]

Alan,

It seems that what you dont understand and what many others do not understand here as well, is the fact that ABSOLUTELY!!! your works cannot buy your salvation!!! a hundred times yes that is TRUE!!!


Rv:22:17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life FREELY.


But here is a secret... which harmonizes everything...

Rv:3:18: I counsel thee to BUY OF ME gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Now why would in one place it represent this as FREE then in another as something you must BUY???


wellllllllllllllllllllllllllll....

Remember the parable of the Pearl OF GREAT PRICE?
(I will be back to finish this post)

Claudia

Claudia, that is what a works based religion is about.

Your salvation is dependent on your works.

Our salvation is evedenced by works but works has not play or accociation with the salvation of a person.


BTW- How much did God charge them for those commodities? Nothing, because you can't buy them. It is a natural part of who you are IF you are IN Christ. Christ in you who GAVE it to you.

 

[Claudia_T]

Alan,

you should wait to read what I say first

go back and read...

Claudia

 

[Allan]

Hey you posted while I was posting. :tongue3:

 

[Allan]

Alan,

It seems that what you dont understand and what many others do not understand here as well, is the fact that ABSOLUTELY!!! your works cannot buy your salvation!!! a hundred times yes that is TRUE!!!


Rv:22:17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life FREELY.


But here is a secret... which harmonizes everything...

Rv:3:18: I counsel thee to BUY OF ME gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Now why would in one place it represent this as FREE then in another as something you must BUY???


wellllllllllllllllllllllllllll....

Remember the parable of the Pearl OF GREAT PRICE?


The parable has a double meaning. Jesus gave His all to redeem us and we must give our all to receive Him...
1Cor:6:20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

You cannot rely on your own efforts to serve God and do it to try to secure your own salvation, such service to God is absolutely useless! Your heart must be moved by a deep seated love for God.

If we realize how much Christ gave for us, how can we not desire, when contemplating His great sacrifice, to give our all for Him in return? What do we give up, when we give all? A sin-polluted heart, for Jesus to purify, to cleanse by His own blood, and to save by His matchless love.

We "Buy" from God by simply giving Him our hearts to cleanse and to purify from sin. We HAVE BEEN BOUGHT with a price! Our hearts no longer belong to us! If we think they do then we are under a huge deception.

Yes salvation IS FREE! We could never ever do anything to earn it. But if we REFUSE to GIVE GOD WHAT IS RIGHTFULLY HIS in return.... well FORGET IT!!!

...and that is the way that it is. Too bad so many just do not understand this concept.


SIMPLY PUT: IF we do not have good works we prove that we have no real genuine faith in Jesus Christ.

Let me tell you something. You, by giving your heart to Christ to cleanse and purify are NOT "earning your salvation" by doing that. YOU ARE GIVING TO CHRIST WHAT IS ALREADY HIS!!!!

it does not belong to you!

therefore it isnt as if you actually "bought" anything, and yes, salvation IS FREE!

But the man in the parable of the Pearl of GREAT PRICE, well he WAS WILLING TO GIVE UP EVERYTHING in order to secure that Pearl!

Claudia

Yes, but what you are missing is this point concerning works. It is not about you keeping what you did not earn for the price was to high for you to even aquire. And as you stated we are Christs so in turn we are not our own to go our own way from Him. Works will not help you keep salvation. See in this construct Works are the REASON you stay saved and therefore it DOES play a part of your salvation. Because Christ did not secure His purchase of You. You were not fully redeemed without your works.

Where the opposite constructs state your will continue to do what by nature you do (being saved and doing good works). You are redeemed regardless of what you COULD do. Those works are the result howevers due to what He has done IN YOU. They have nothing to with salvation in light of Gods judgment for that has been satified in Christ. Works are the evedence of Christ in Us. IF there is no changed life then there will be no works, then by virtue of the scriptures can speak with that person to examine themselve to see if they are in the faith as says the scriptures by Paul. In this construct you ARE full redeemed and works play no part in the redemption. IT is proof you have been redeemed.

It seem a fine line of the surface but it is a wide chasm that never meets when researched.