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Would you be a Patriot or Loyalist?

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Dr. Bob, Sep 2, 2003.

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  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    In US history of the great rebellion of 1776, many baptists were fiercely patriotic and advocating rebelling against George III.

    Others were passively loyalist (Tories) and felt the Bible taught obedience to governmental authority, even if evil or repressive.

    (1) Which would you have been?

    (2) What Scripture would you use to justify your position?

    Thanks.
     
    #1 Dr. Bob, Sep 2, 2003
  2. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    I'd have remained loyal to my lawful government, as a subject of the realm.

    Romans 13 together with "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" (aside from the issue of refusing to fight on either side in carnal warfare).
     
    #2 Taufgesinnter, Sep 2, 2003
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Me too, Tauf. Bob the Tory.

    IF the government made unbiblical laws (like Daniel not to pray or Peter not to preach) then we have to rebel, "obeying God rather than men" . . and take the consequences of such rebellion.

    But I don't see that in the American Rebellion of 1776. Or for that matter in the Second Revolution in 1860.
     
    #3 Dr. Bob, Sep 2, 2003
  4. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    The question arises to which government would I be loyal to. As say a Virginian, should I be loyal the elected government of my colony (the House of Burgesses predated the Revolution by many a year) or to HM and his government in London. Keep in mind, many of us viewed ourselves as loyal free born Englishmen. We looked upon ourselves (especially in the Northern Colonies) as heirs to the hard won rights and privileges bought by our father's blood during the Civil War and the Glorious Revolution. We held our colonial assemblies as the equal in our territory to Parliament in London. So, when King George sought to rule in the colonies when he could only reign in the United kingdom, we sought to deal with him as our fathers dealt with Charles I and James II.
     
    #4 Squire Robertsson, Sep 2, 2003
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I would have been a Patriot in 1776 and a Confederate in 1861. God raises governments up and God tears governments down. And if was God's will to use me in doing so, I would follow.
     
    #5 KenH, Sep 2, 2003
  6. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    I agree with Squire.
    It wasn't an established government being rebelled against, it was a government attempting to establish itself, wasn't it? :confused:
    BTW, wasn't Torie used almost as a cuss word? Maybe it's just where I grew up, lol, I remember "Torie torie torie" being used to tease new kids.
    Gina
     
    #6 Gina B, Sep 2, 2003
  7. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Your all treasonous rebellious colonists, and I'm acoming to hang the sorry lot of you, on behalf of Her Majesty. In Christian love, naturally.

    Yours in Christ (and running for cover!)

    Matt

    PS BTW, you lucky lot got rid of the Tories in 1783; we had to wait until 1997 :eek:
     
    #7 Matt Black, Sep 3, 2003
  8. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    But seriously though, folks, this is a difficult one. I'd always taken the view that the 13 colonies in 1775/6 and the CSA in 1861 were in breach of Rom 13. However, when I look at parallels from UK history, the situation is ot so clear-cut. For instance, as a good Baptist, I probably would have raised the standard for Parliament against Charles I in 1642 and similarly against his son in 1688-9. So the American Revolution and Civil War are similarly not so clear as I once thought.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #8 Matt Black, Sep 3, 2003
  9. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Thanks for the perspective, Matt. It is worth noteing that in the Revolution, the legislative branchs of the various and sundry colonies sided with the Continentals. They looked upon themselves as the locally elected versions of the Parliament in London. The governors were for the most part Royal appointees who stood in for the Crown. Viceroys if you please. Effectively, what occured at the start of the Revolution was the coalescence of 13 replays of the English Civil War.

    The 1860-65 War is another matter. One question that I would have to answer is:</font>
    • Am I citizen of the United States because I was born inside the national borders of the US?
      or</font>
    • Am I a citizen of the United States because I am a citizen of the State of ______?</font>
     
    #9 Squire Robertsson, Sep 3, 2003
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Squire - That is a great question. And the regional difference in the reply would show the division in 1860.

    Most Southerners were large and small farmer and landowners. They were loyal to their sovereign state. This was home, property - the land they knew and loved for generations. Most of their fathers had lived in the COLONY before there was a Federal government. They were involved strongly in local government and did not want to be told what to do (about anything, but esp taxes, tariffs and slaves).

    Northerners were much more influenced by immigration. And big city landless population. Their loyalty would be to the new COUNTRY they had adopted and come to. They did not have the same heritage and history and subsequent loyalty to a colony/state or even region. Almost all of the midwest was settled at that time . . 80%+ from transplants ABOVE the Mason-Dixon line. There was a pride from being from Wisconsin or Maine, but MORE pride in being from the Union.

    Conclusion:

    Southrans believed in the United States IN America . . which could be annulled and disunited by the rights of each sovereign state.

    Yankees believed in the United States OF America as one nation, indivisible. To destroy that country by secession was TREASON.
     
    #10 Dr. Bob, Sep 3, 2003
  11. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    I have always contended that 60-65 War was fought a generation too late for the Southern States to win. If they had followed through and left the Union in the Nullification Controversy, Andy Jackson may have lead the Regular Army South, but the North did not have the wherewithal to win like they did in 65. A war in the 1820's would have been a quagmire for Jackson. The North did not have the manufacturing base, railroads and telegraphs, and most importantly California and Nevada's gold and silver. Further, the Mexico still controlled Texas, making an effective blockade problematical. But on the bright side for the North, Winfield Scott was still vigorous and able to take the field. And, the South did not have the generals and officer corps it would later have for its Army.
     
    #11 Squire Robertsson, Sep 4, 2003
  12. Paul from Antioch

    Paul from Antioch Active Member

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    The "Civil" War, The "War Between the States," or "War of NORTHERN AGRESSION!!," etc., ad nauseum, and some 50 years before, "The Second American REVOLUTIONARY War," and some 20-30 years before, "THE Revolutionary War," and then we go back to "The Multitude of Reasons for either siding with or opposing the British Throne, and then BEFORE that ..... Etc.!! Well, if anything, we LOVE a good war!! And that's not including the role that the French, Spanish, Germans, and the Green Men from Outer Space!! Shouldn't our 2nd Amendment really be the 1st?? Yep, we Americans never met a war they didn't like ;);):) And then when your consider all the other unnamed "Operations So-&So," WOW!! I'd be laughing if it weren't so grim. And still the world's population is increasing at record speed (The drug included, I guess!!) And, what'd we do with the Prince of Peace? Yup, we even tried to kill Him too!! Talk about a viscous cycle!! And then we have the arm-chair Generals telling us why their side MUST ALWAYS BE THE RIGHT side. Sure makes me long for the 1,000 year reign of Christ....and after 1,000 years of peace, we're at it again!! You'da thunk that we'da learned SOME thing by now, but of course we haven't!! (Wanna fight me on that??!!??) And I haven't yet brought up the fight Lucifer had "back in the good old days"!! I remember the old saying, "People never really did learn from history"? Sorry, we just hadda duke that around too!! Pride comes before the Fall or so I'm told. I even remember this one feller who just KNEW why God'll wipe away all our tears!! .... It's because of that, shall we say, "A slight difference of opinions," MADE me stop at just his one eye!! Now see here, spouse! Now YOU've done it!! .... And don't even think about thinking about ducking my fists!" Oh, Boy!! I guess that's at least one reason our BB Administrators have had to close as many threads and /or forums. Thank God BB has Administrators who've more than gone the 2nd mile!! BTW, do we pay them "Combat Duty" Pay?
     
    #12 Paul from Antioch, May 3, 2021
  13. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    #13 Squire Robertsson, May 3, 2021
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