Wuv, true wuv ...

[atpollard]

From somewhere else, a jumping off point ...

He told us that the Calvinism debate was an undergraduate topic we should have outgrown. The theological topic for graduate school was Divine Love. This is a move toward spiritual truth while the latter was a Christian philosophical exercise.

... and something from the word of God just to get started:

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have [the gift of] prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed [the poor,] and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. [1 Corinthians 13:1-3 NASB]
​

So does anyone think they have a handle on this “Love” thing that God seems to think is so important?
Got any Scripture that you can use to explain it to all of us poor struggling Christian Joes.
How does murdering your son say “I love you” and what am I supposed to do with that as the example?
(Reading my Bible more doesn’t really seem like an appropriate response.)

So what about God’s love and our love do you have to share?

 

[JonC]

This is the most complex subject I have ever endeavored to study. In my opinion this is the core of spiritual truth and growth. I have to admit I do not have a handle on this but am still struggling to learn and grow.

What I have learned is this love, for me, has often grown out of obedience. There are areas in my life where I have struggled but submitted to God in obedience and for the sake of obedience. But in obeying this act of obedience has turned into a genuine love for other people.

To explain - being kind to people to whom I do not want to show kindness (out of obedience only) has generated in me a love and concern for those people. Imitating Christ in obedience moves us towards possessing the mind of Christ. The act of loving one another produces a love for one another.

It all begins with loving God.

 

[Yeshua1]

From somewhere else, a jumping off point ...



... and something from the word of God just to get started:

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have [the gift of] prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed [the poor,] and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. [1 Corinthians 13:1-3 NASB]
​

So does anyone think they have a handle on this “Love” thing that God seems to think is so important?
Got any Scripture that you can use to explain it to all of us poor struggling Christian Joes.
How does murdering your son say “I love you” and what am I supposed to do with that as the example?
(Reading my Bible more doesn’t really seem like an appropriate response.)

So what about God’s love and our love do you have to share?

we need to find that balance, as yes God is love, but He also is holy!

 

[JonC]

we need to find that balance, as yes God is love, but He also is holy!

Perhaps these are not opposing things that need balancing. Maybe love is also holy (especially if God is love).

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps these are not opposing things that need balancing. Maybe love is also holy (especially if God is love).

they are not against each other, but his love rooted in holiness, as he also has wrath towards all thing ungodly and wicked!

 

[JonC]

they are not against each other, but his love rooted in holiness, as he also has wrath towards all thing ungodly and wicked!

How do you know that God's holiness is not rooting in God's love?

 

[AustinC]

It seems that the opposite of love is pride. This is why Paul contrasts a person's actions, which may be noble and good, yet are no better than a clanging gong or cymbal. If we do not have love, we very likely have pride.
Pride or love, this seems to be the crux of Paul's struggle in Romans 7 and 8 where he bemoans the things he does that he doesn't want to do, yet finds that the answer is not in himself, but in Christ Jesus.
This immersion in Christ is where the Holy Spirit works. We are still bound in this body of corruption, yet the Holy Spirit is praying for us and working in us. We are, by nature, prideful beings, not loving beings. God is love. Humans, apart from God, are not love. We are proud. We do many, many good and kind things that are prideful acts. We do not love, until Love lives in us and pride is released.
The Bible tells us that the Spirit is in constant struggle with our corrupt spirit that will not willingly give up the fight. (Read Romans and Galatians) We will struggle with love because we are, by nature prideful.

 

[JonC]

It seems that the opposite of love is pride. This is why Paul contrasts a person's actions, which may be noble and good, yet are no better than a clanging gong or cymbal. If we do not have love, we very likely have pride.
Pride or love, this seems to be the crux of Paul's struggle in Romans 7 and 8 where he bemoans the things he does that he doesn't want to do, yet finds that the answer is not in himself, but in Christ Jesus.
This immersion in Christ is where the Holy Spirit works. We are still bound in this body of corruption, yet the Holy Spirit is praying for us and working in us. We are, by nature, prideful beings, not loving beings. God is love. Humans, apart from God, are not love. We are proud. We do many, many good and kind things that are prideful acts. We do not love, until Love lives in us and pride is released.
The Bible tells us that the Spirit is in constant struggle with our corrupt spirit that will not willingly give up the fight. (Read Romans and Galatians) We will struggle with love because we are, by nature prideful.

That is a good way of putting it.

I think that pride is turned inwards where love is outwards. God expresses His love for us in a sacrificial way. The world looks to pride, calling it "self love", as the source for loving others (we see this starkly on "self-help" works and shows). But this type of "love" is not love at all. It is Adam's original sin, placing oneself or one's own desires as an ultimate thing in our lives. And love is God in us, never ourselves pushing outwards but God working through and in our lives.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is a good way of putting it.

I think that pride is turned inwards where love is outwards. God expresses His love for us in a sacrificial way. The world looks to pride, calling it "self love", as the source for loving others (we see this starkly on "self-help" works and shows). But this type of "love" is not love at all. It is Adam's original sin, placing oneself or one's own desires as an ultimate thing in our lives. And love is God in us, never ourselves pushing outwards but God working through and in our lives.

Pride is loving ourselves, having a form of self righteousness!

 

[JonC]

Pride is loving ourselves, having a form of self righteousness!

I agree, but it is a specific kind of "self-love" (remember we are to love others as ourselves).

 

[atpollard]

A lesson that always stuck out to me comes from this verse:

However, the king said to Araunah, "No, but I will surely buy [it] from you for a price, for I will not offer burnt offerings to the LORD my God which cost me nothing." So David bought the threshing floor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver. [2 Samuel 24:24 NASB]​

This always seemed to be applicable to a lot of things ... including "Love".
To say "God bless you" or "I'll pray for you" and be on your way and all about your normal day and life is a "Love" that "cost me nothing". James had something to say about "faith without works" and Jesus talked about people that offered lip service but whose "heart is far from me".

Can we get real for a moment? When the Church presents a need and I dig into my pocket and give $20 or $50 or $100 for some need, I feel like I have really done something good. I feel good about myself. Honestly, what have I really done? It was barely an inconvenience. Even if I gave so much money that it hurt, so what. It still cost me VERY LITTLE personally. I was hardly inconvenienced.

The hardest thing that I ever did didn't cost me a dime, but I am still paying for it. After my brother was murdered, the stepfather to his children was physically abusing them. I reported it and other relatives lied to cover it up and I lost all contact with my nieces and nephews forever. Given the lives they have chosen to build for themselves, it very likely is FOREVER.

One person at Church had a travel trailer on his property. He met someone at Church that was trying to get back on his feet but was living out of his car at the moment. The man with the trailer allowed the man living in his car to live in the trailer until he could save enough to rent a place of his own. There was an act of Love that actually cost him something. The irony is that the church was so shocked by what he did that, if we hadn't been Protestants, they would have probably written the Vatican to start the process of sainthood! Has doing something that actually costs us some inconvenience really become so rare? Maybe it has.

The other aspect of Divine Love and "I will not offer burnt offerings to the LORD my God which cost me nothing" that I have observed, is who is it good for and who pays the price? Anytime I find myself doing something that helps another at my expense, I am probably doing something right in God's economy.

Of course, I am a rotten Christian that gets it wrong far too often, so none of you probably experience anything like this in your lives.

 

[AustinC]

A lesson that always stuck out to me comes from this verse:

However, the king said to Araunah, "No, but I will surely buy [it] from you for a price, for I will not offer burnt offerings to the LORD my God which cost me nothing." So David bought the threshing floor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver. [2 Samuel 24:24 NASB]​

This always seemed to be applicable to a lot of things ... including "Love".
To say "God bless you" or "I'll pray for you" and be on your way and all about your normal day and life is a "Love" that "cost me nothing". James had something to say about "faith without works" and Jesus talked about people that offered lip service but whose "heart is far from me".

Can we get real for a moment? When the Church presents a need and I dig into my pocket and give $20 or $50 or $100 for some need, I feel like I have really done something good. I feel good about myself. Honestly, what have I really done? It was barely an inconvenience. Even if I gave so much money that it hurt, so what. It still cost me VERY LITTLE personally. I was hardly inconvenienced.

The hardest thing that I ever did didn't cost me a dime, but I am still paying for it. After my brother was murdered, the stepfather to his children was physically abusing them. I reported it and other relatives lied to cover it up and I lost all contact with my nieces and nephews forever. Given the lives they have chosen to build for themselves, it very likely is FOREVER.

One person at Church had a travel trailer on his property. He met someone at Church that was trying to get back on his feet but was living out of his car at the moment. The man with the trailer allowed the man living in his car to live in the trailer until he could save enough to rent a place of his own. There was an act of Love that actually cost him something. The irony is that the church was so shocked by what he did that, if we hadn't been Protestants, they would have probably written the Vatican to start the process of sainthood! Has doing something that actually costs us some inconvenience really become so rare? Maybe it has.

The other aspect of Divine Love and "I will not offer burnt offerings to the LORD my God which cost me nothing" that I have observed, is who is it good for and who pays the price? Anytime I find myself doing something that helps another at my expense, I am probably doing something right in God's economy.

Of course, I am a rotten Christian that gets it wrong far too often, so none of you probably experience anything like this in your lives.

Great points.