Yes, Pentecostals and Charismatics can change!

[Onlybygrace]

I have had the opportunity to fellowship in a pentecostal church for the past 18 months since no evangelical church is available in the area. They practice speaking in tongues, extra biblical prohecy and teach baptism of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. I have had the privilege of attending a men's cell group during the week with a group of men who love the Lord and want to learn and grow. As I've had more and more God-given opportunity to share Biblical truth concerning these issues many of them have come to the point where by God's grace the have realised the truth and renounced these practices as unbiblical. The big question is where to from here since they now want to approach the pastor about what he teaches. The congregation is about 800 strong and I am wary of the potential this has to split the church. Advice?

 

[Tom Butler]

I appreciate your concern for division in a church, but it may be too late.

If those people whom you have helped confront the pastor over this issue, understand that he will not likely change his mind.

So your friends, and you, will be seen as divisive. All of you could eventually be gone, voluntarily or not.

Often one's search for the truth, and defense of it, carries a heavy price.

 

[Onlybygrace]

All too true Tom as I am well aware through painful past experience. I have tried as best I can to explain to them the consequences of pursuing these issues. I don't believe anyone can really change a community or organisation from within. When u learn a truth in opposition to the perceived truth of that sub culture you would do better to leave it and seekk others of likemindedness rather than try and force change upon it. Have I done the wrong thing by teaching them something contrary to their denominational beliefs? Should I have left it alone?

 

[Benjamin]

Have I done the wrong thing by teaching them something contrary to their denominational beliefs? Should I have left it alone?

Nope.

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
(2Ti 4:2)

 

[Gershom]

I have had the opportunity to fellowship in a pentecostal church for the past 18 months since no evangelical church is available in the area. They practice speaking in tongues, extra biblical prohecy and teach baptism of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. I have had the privilege of attending a men's cell group during the week with a group of men who love the Lord and want to learn and grow. As I've had more and more God-given opportunity to share Biblical truth concerning these issues many of them have come to the point where by God's grace the have realised the truth and renounced these practices as unbiblical. The big question is where to from here since they now want to approach the pastor about what he teaches. The congregation is about 800 strong and I am wary of the potential this has to split the church. Advice?

Take your little group and start your own church.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

We hear of this kind of thing now and again--- somebody who knows biblical and historic Christian doctrine befriends some charismatics, teaches them what God's Word says and people discontinue their unbiblical practices.

It is NOT your fault, OP. All you did was show God's Word. I hope you find a good church somewhere else.

 

[righteousdude2]

The Old Adage/Idiom Works Well Here....

...I was taught at an early age in my walk with Jesus that it is best to "Not bruise the fruit!"

While I have gifts that most denominations would denounce, and others would hail! I have found it is best to use these gifts in a subtle, underlying manner than to use them to divide and conquer.

Yes, your gifts can be used [even within this more conventional body of believers], but, you need to prayerfully know the difference between using them for the overall good of the body, and using them to puff up yourself and be divisive. Divisive spirits are a sin. Titus 3:10 tells us to warn such folks twice, then leave them alone. Also see 1 Cor. 1:10-17.

More importantly, let 1 Cor. 14 be your Scriptural guide in this matter. Don't trust your own feelings in this case, because feelings can often be misled by the devil, leading us to sin. When it comes to the highly divisive nature of tongues and other such gifts, it is best to "Not bruise the fruit!"

I fully understand where you are coming from, as I was once zealous and wanted the world to know just how great it was to possess these gifts and use them for the betterment of the body as a whole. I later observed how an unchecked passionate [Scripturally speaking]approach can lead to division within a body, leaving a great number of souls disillusioned, wounded and left on the side of the path. Some never got back on that path.

Just read softly, and let the Holy Ghost, who gave you these gifts, be the leader and not your ambition or desire to see the world changed with the wonders of the gifts you found.

Time has shown me that some folks will never see the cross as you see it. So, my main goal is to make sure that they first, and foremost, see the cross for what it is [their personal salvation], and allow them to grow at God's own speed. The most important thing that I want for another is that they are getting to heaven! To possess all of the gifts of the Spirit is not as important as their being saved and "growing towards glory!"

I can tell you are well meaning, brother, and I know you will get it right before you let yourself be used to divide a cohesive body. raying:

 

[Iconoclast]

Nope.

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
(2Ti 4:2)

Good post....an answer....with the scripture that speaks to it directly.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[TCGreek]

Even Baptist churches split all the time.

 

[richardetyler]

NO! You did do anything wrong! You are commanded by the Bible to always speak the truth, especially if you feel that someone is in a dangerous error. I was into the united pentecostal church for a time and I can tell you keep to the truth! Especially if this is a oneness pentecostal group, not sure if it was by your statement.

"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." ~ James 5:19

 

[Iconoclast]

NO! You did do anything wrong! You are commanded by the Bible to always speak the truth, especially if you feel that someone is in a dangerous error. I was into the united pentecostal church for a time and I can tell you keep to the truth! Especially if this is a oneness pentecostal group, not sure if it was by your statement.

"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." ~ James 5:19

:thumbsup::thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

 

[freeatlast]

I have had the opportunity to fellowship in a pentecostal church for the past 18 months since no evangelical church is available in the area. They practice speaking in tongues, extra biblical prohecy and teach baptism of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. I have had the privilege of attending a men's cell group during the week with a group of men who love the Lord and want to learn and grow. As I've had more and more God-given opportunity to share Biblical truth concerning these issues many of them have come to the point where by God's grace the have realised the truth and renounced these practices as unbiblical. The big question is where to from here since they now want to approach the pastor about what he teaches. The congregation is about 800 strong and I am wary of the potential this has to split the church. Advice?

Well there is no doubt that the first choice would be for the entire church to accept the truth. However we need to get out of our minds that church splits are always bad. they are not. As long as you are speaking the truth and some are accepting don't worry how the Lord handles His church, just speak the truth.

 

[HAMel]

Many, many years ago I took the Bible and by doing a word study established that "speaking in tongues" was not a biblical position.

The guy took it home to his wife and she exploded like you wouldn't believe! This poor boy looked like a whipped dog when she got through with him.

It was amazing.

 

[Onlybygrace]

Thank you for you encouragement, comments and suggestions.
Please allow me to share with the circumstances surrounding this problem so that you can better understand where I am coming from.
After joining the men's cell group of which I am now a regular part, I was asked to share the teaching responsibilty by the cell group leader. I have done so now for over a year. About two months ago we identified a need for the men in our group to be properly discipled. After completing a thorough Biblical study of salvation they decided to move on to baptism. During the course of the study the subject of Holy Spirit baptism came up. I said to them that it would be better if I did not teach or make comment with regard to that particular subject since seeing my views regarding it differed and I did not want to confuse anyone. But they insisted on hearing my views because they felt they needed to hear both sides of the story in order to learn. After sharing some thoughts from scripture and asking them some challenging questions they began to question and eventually disown their own denominational belief in Holy Spirit baptism as a secondary experience and tongues being the validation of that experience. Theu began to ask me more and more questions and I simply answered them as honestly and biblically as I could. Two months later they are questioning their own church practices and teachings.

While I do understand that Paul commanded Timothy to correct and rebuke those who teach heresy I do believe my circumstances are different to that of Timothy and therefore require a different approach, I'm just not sure what that is.

1. Timothy was the pastor of the church and therefore had the authority and forum to correct and rebuke. I am just an ordinary member.
2. The majority of the church believed the truth in Timothy's case and the false teachers were in the minority. In my case the Bible believers are in the minority and the majority believe heresy.
3. Timothy's false teachers were attempting to infiltrate the church but in my case they are the church and some cases include the leadership of the church.

I've always believed that you cannot change a church from within while you are part of it. You have to seperate yourself from that community and its polluted culture and establish a counter culture, rescuing individuals one at a time. This philosophy dictates a new church plant. The community I live is a small town farming community. The reaction would be huge. I am not afraid of controversy or of being attacked. I have paid that price before for the sake of trutha nd even been excommunicated and ostracised. But my concern is for the bretheren I fellowship with and have taught the word of God to.

How do we proceed? Do we meet with the pastor and voice our concerns? Do we like it and lump it? Do I make a choice to rather focus on what is common as opposed to the obvious differences? Is it right and fair to join a church that you know believes different to you and then to orchestrate a doctrinal rebellion from within its ranks whether intentionally or not? Would it have been God glorifying to leave them in error when I know I have the truth? I feel conflicted. This pastor is going to think I have purposely tried to stab him in the back and with the supersticion and mysticism endemic to pentecostalism it makes it hard to say let's sit down and open the Bible together in pursuit of the truth. They do not think that way. They are threatened by biblical truth, logic and formal theological education. They operate from the premise that experience dictates truth while I believe the very opposite! Whooo boy! Pardon the spelling, grammar and typos...I'm using my blackberry.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Thank you for you encouragement, comments and suggestions.
Please allow me to share with the circumstances surrounding this problem so that you can better understand where I am coming from.
After joining the men's cell group of which I am now a regular part, I was asked to share the teaching responsibilty by the cell group leader. I have done so now for over a year. About two months ago we identified a need for the men in our group to be properly discipled. After completing a thorough Biblical study of salvation they decided to move on to baptism. During the course of the study the subject of Holy Spirit baptism came up. I said to them that it would be better if I did not teach or make comment with regard to that particular subject since seeing my views regarding it differed and I did not want to confuse anyone. But they insisted on hearing my views because they felt they needed to hear both sides of the story in order to learn. After sharing some thoughts from scripture and asking them some challenging questions they began to question and eventually disown their own denominational belief in Holy Spirit baptism as a secondary experience and tongues being the validation of that experience. Theu began to ask me more and more questions and I simply answered them as honestly and biblically as I could. Two months later they are questioning their own church practices and teachings.

While I do understand that Paul commanded Timothy to correct and rebuke those who teach heresy I do believe my circumstances are different to that of Timothy and therefore require a different approach, I'm just not sure what that is.

1. Timothy was the pastor of the church and therefore had the authority and forum to correct and rebuke. I am just an ordinary member.
2. The majority of the church believed the truth in Timothy's case and the false teachers were in the minority. In my case the Bible believers are in the minority and the majority believe heresy.
3. Timothy's false teachers were attempting to infiltrate the church but in my case they are the church and some cases include the leadership of the church.

I've always believed that you cannot change a church from within while you are part of it. You have to seperate yourself from that community and its polluted culture and establish a counter culture, rescuing individuals one at a time. This philosophy dictates a new church plant. The community I live is a small town farming community. The reaction would be huge. I am not afraid of controversy or of being attacked. I have paid that price before for the sake of trutha nd even been excommunicated and ostracised. But my concern is for the bretheren I fellowship with and have taught the word of God to.

How do we proceed? Do we meet with the pastor and voice our concerns? Do we like it and lump it? Do I make a choice to rather focus on what is common as opposed to the obvious differences? Is it right and fair to join a church that you know believes different to you and then to orchestrate a doctrinal rebellion from within its ranks whether intentionally or not? Would it have been God glorifying to leave them in error when I know I have the truth? I feel conflicted. This pastor is going to think I have purposely tried to stab him in the back and with the supersticion and mysticism endemic to pentecostalism it makes it hard to say let's sit down and open the Bible together in pursuit of the truth. They do not think that way. They are threatened by biblical truth, logic and formal theological education. They operate from the premise that experience dictates truth while I believe the very opposite! Whooo boy! Pardon the spelling, grammar and typos...I'm using my blackberry.

That's a rather broad brush you're painting with there.

Now, I don't mean this to be overly critical, but how do you know that everything you believe is 100% correct?

I do understand the predicament you are in. I may be about to embark on something similar. But I will not attempt to change anyone's beliefs; I have already talked to a few people in the church and let them know what I believe and how I differ; they have been accepting of me. I would be willing to "let it be" and leave everything to God.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have had the opportunity to fellowship in a pentecostal church for the past 18 months since no evangelical church is available in the area. They practice speaking in tongues, extra biblical prohecy and teach baptism of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. I have had the privilege of attending a men's cell group during the week with a group of men who love the Lord and want to learn and grow. As I've had more and more God-given opportunity to share Biblical truth concerning these issues many of them have come to the point where by God's grace the have realised the truth and renounced these practices as unbiblical. The big question is where to from here since they now want to approach the pastor about what he teaches. The congregation is about 800 strong and I am wary of the potential this has to split the church. Advice?

I came out of the Assemblies of God, and would say that it all depends here on what kind of charasmatic church this is!

IF word of faith, into hagin/Copeland etc, you all need to leave now and take all away that you can!

IF more like traditional one...

You all might be able to stay for a time, but eventually you will have to realise that since you don't hold to Tongues and the 'baptism in HG" as they do, best to move on, but leave in peace...

 

[saturneptune]

I have had the opportunity to fellowship in a pentecostal church for the past 18 months since no evangelical church is available in the area. They practice speaking in tongues, extra biblical prohecy and teach baptism of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. I have had the privilege of attending a men's cell group during the week with a group of men who love the Lord and want to learn and grow. As I've had more and more God-given opportunity to share Biblical truth concerning these issues many of them have come to the point where by God's grace the have realised the truth and renounced these practices as unbiblical. The big question is where to from here since they now want to approach the pastor about what he teaches. The congregation is about 800 strong and I am wary of the potential this has to split the church. Advice?

I think your motives are pure, and that you have a real gift there from the Lord. Hopefully, the time you spent with them will be a touch from the Lord and they will come to the truth.

In the real world, the two denominations have vast gulfs, which you will probably not only divide the church, but lose, because you are on the Pentecostal home turf. My advice would be either start a New Testement church, or take your prayer group to a church of like faith and order, if you can find no Baptist church.

If you would have had a group of Methodists or Presbyterians, and made them see the error, of say sprinkling, you would probably of had a much better chance. Pentecostal, Church of Christ, and Catholics are just too far removed from us to expect anything different.

God bless you and your ministry as He leads you.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think your motives are pure, and that you have a real gift there from the Lord. Hopefully, the time you spent with them will be a touch from the Lord and they will come to the truth.

In the real world, the two denominations have vast gulfs, which you will probably not only divide the church, but lose, because you are on the Pentecostal home turf. My advice would be either start a New Testement church, or take your prayer group to a church of like faith and order, if you can find no Baptist church.

If you would have had a group of Methodists or Presbyterians, and made them see the error, of say sprinkling, you would probably of had a much better chance. Pentecostal, Church of Christ, and Catholics are just too far removed from us to expect anything different.

God bless you and your ministry as He leads you.

Depends IF the pentacostal churh is into 'weird doctrines", or else holds to say classical views... if that is the case, can be there and teach others, but will come a time to leave, as will not be able to uphold "distinctive pentacostal doctrines" any longer from the Bible!